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Becky: Welcome one and all to Becky & Ben’s Fertility Spotlight. I’m Becky.
Ben: I’m Ben.
Becky: We’ve helped thousands of IVF couples, and we’re proud parents of Ida and Coral, two amazing donor-conceived children.
Ben: In this episode, we’re talking about resilience, and our special guest, Gemma, who’s a positive psychology coach with a keen interest in fertility.
Becky: Being positive is so important, but how can you be when it’s so tough?
Ben: Just to say, our podcast is general information only for a personalized diagnosis. Always speak to a medical professional.
Becky: Let’s explore resilience and how we can truly build it.
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Becky: In this episode, we’ll be talking about resilience. We’re delighted to have Gemma here to help us explore resilience and the journey that we went through. Certainly myself, I don’t think about it that much, but when I do think about the hardship, and I do question how we got through it.
Ben: Absolutely. I think every fertility patient would say the same thing, that it doesn’t go according to plan most of the time. It takes longer most of the time to achieve it. There are some very lucky people out there who succeed first time, but they’re in the minority. For us, it was a good five years. We didn’t know when it was going to work finally, although it did finally work for us. It was very, very tough on us. It really challenged us in terms of the inner strength that we had to bring out to get through it. I think every patient would say this, that they had to draw on some kind of resources, sometimes they didn’t know they had to get through it.
Becky: I’m sure people listening today who are going through a very difficult time or have been through a very difficult time in their fertility journey will relate to this episode because there are so many questions out there on where do you find your resilience, where do you find your strength, how do you manage to keep hopeful through this never-ending journey, this emotional roller coaster where one moment things may be going well, another moment things may be just awful and you’re rock bottom. Also, you just don’t know when it’s going to end.
Ben: You don’t. You have well-meaning friends and the vast majority of people who know about your fertility treatment, and we know some people keep it very confidential, but those who know what you’re going through, bless them, don’t often say the right thing. For example, the amount of times people have said to us, “Oh, be strong, be strong,” or “Relax,” or “It’s going to be okay,” these kinds of sentiments, although well-meant, didn’t really help us. We had to dig deeper, didn’t we, to get through it.
Becky: We did. We had counseling, and that really helped. It’s a long process. That’s why we’re so delighted to have Gemma here today to take us through positivity and the strategies or the ways of coping and discovering where our positivity comes from.
Ben: Before we bring Gemma in, just one thing from me. That is, in the olden days, as they used to say, when we had treatment, we saw a counselor. That’s great, and there are lots of wonderful fertility counselors out there. Today, there is an emergence of even greater help, such as Gemma. Gemma is a positive psychology coach, and I know she’s interested in the fertility journey. We’re seeing more of that. Counseling is great, but people with a particular niche on really thinking about the well-being.
Becky: How they cope day to day.
Ben: Gemma, I wanted to ask this question. I know you’re an expert in all areas of the psychology aspect of going through it. There’ll be people listening to this going, “Right. I’m about to start on my journey. I’m halfway through it or whatever.” What sort of strategies do you think they should be looking at, apart from seeing a counselor or trying to be strong? Can they learn to be strong?
Gemma: The thing that is really encouraging and hopefully hopeful is that there’s a whole field out there that’s researching these things, the strategies, the resources. There’s so much in positive psychology that I think can be applied to fertility. I’m personally fascinated in feats of human endeavor, which I would say anyone on a fertility journey is experiencing that. I’m in awe of anyone that can go through any of it. It’s just huge. There’s so much we can mine basically from the world of positive psychology. Just to establish what that is, if you’re not familiar with it, it’s the science of wellbeing and optimal human functioning.
Whereas psychology, as usual, which is incredible, that looks at what’s happening when we’re struggling and perhaps not at our optimum functioning. Positive psychology looks at everything that’s going really well. There’s not a one-size-fits-all solution, obviously. I think the beautiful thing about what you said, having counseling is incredible. I think the more support someone can put into their support suite, so you might have a counselor, a coach, your clinic, your family, or friends, it’s just broadening that circle to include everything you think might support. What is really beautiful about coaching is that that can be explored in the coaching space.
Becky: What we’re going to do today is just shake things up a bit. We’re going to get you to interview us about our resilience, where we found our hope in our fertility journey. You’re very welcome, Gemma, just to kick off. Ask us any question. You can ask us anything you like, either of us or both of us.
Gemma: Yes, I do because I listened to your first episode, and I was just completely struck by how incredible you are to have come through such a long, long, long journey full of such adversity. I was really touched and moved by all of the experiences you shared. From my perspective, in positive psychology world, I was just struck with how incredibly resourceful you were. I was just so struck when you talked about humour. I know you talked about it, I think, in the first episode.
Becky: In episode one.
Gemma: Yes. It was just like this revelation to me that who would have thought in such dark times, humour was playing such a strong role for you? When you talked about watching the film, it was incredible. This, to me, was a really amazing example of, in positive psychology, what’s called character strengths. It’s the strength of human character, the big red threads that go through your life. Your most positive natural traits, I think, for you, is possibly humour, Becky.
Becky: Definitely. It’s interesting you bring that up because I come from a family where my mum was constantly laughing about stuff. She was incredibly sweet and funny, and she would weep with laughter over episodes of Dallas and just find things incredibly funny. It was part of our family dynamic. I’m one of four siblings. I’m the youngest. I remember growing up in this atmosphere, I suppose, of joy, really, and of people laughing. It was interesting because, reflecting back on my childhood, sex was never talked about. Emotional subjects were never really talked about, but the way that we coped with life was through humour.
For me, growing up in that atmosphere with my mum always laughing, my dad wasn’t such a comedian, but he appreciated it. My mum held us all together. She really inspired me, as my dad did. I grew up laughing a lot. Then, when I started to have hardships in life, I realised that the only way I could really cope was to rely on humour. Obviously, the opposite of comedy is tragedy. My mum died when I was 23. That was quite challenging. I didn’t laugh for a very long time. Then I was living in Australia. I was doing an acting course and I realised the power of comedy again. I was reminded of my mother, and I was reminded of how delightful it is to laugh.
I found my laughter again, and I went out with an Aussie guy who was really funny. Gradually, comedy came back into my life. After that, I realised, okay, joy is still there. You can find it in life, however hard things are. Through my 20s and 30s, I lost quite a few people I was close to and again experienced rock bottom, extremely hard times, but somehow managed to crawl out of those pits of despair, and laugh about it because it just saved me. Any reference to comedy, any comic film, I know Ben is the same here, uplifts me and helps me. Hence, in episode one, watching Tootsie was the way that I could escape and, for just a short time, laugh, even though I had the despair of Elsie.
Ben: Tootsie, as we said in episode one, it may seem extraordinary to people that we come home with terrible news about our pregnancy loss and watch Tootsie. It almost felt a physical sense that this film was going deeper than any other film that we could– Because we watched some serious films as well that didn’t really work, but the comedy worked. That struck me again how leaning towards the lighter side of life to get through things, it’s closer than you think. We grasped it quite quickly when we realized the funny was better than the serious in that particular context.
Becky: If you look at Shakespeare, he has a comic scene, then he has a tragic scene, or a dramatic scene, and then he has a comic scene. He knew how fused tragedy and comedy were. He was such a genius that he knew that even in great pain, you could find humour. That’s what is so brilliant about him and about many great playwrights, in my opinion.
Ben: I grew up in quite a large family as well, but it wasn’t a happy family compared to your family. There were lots of challenges along the way. I often say to people, with the greatest respect to my siblings, that if you could get through my family, you can get through anything. For me, the resilience came from that, and it really did come to the rescue.
Becky: You sometimes call yourself a survivor.
Ben: The two best things that happened to me in life, one, meeting you, [laughter] two, surviving my childhood. Those are the two key things. I didn’t talk about the difficulties of my childhood for many years, and I won’t get into too many details here either, but suffice to say that it was very, very challenging. I do remember leaning towards humour during that period as well.
Gemma: So fascinating, isnt’ it? I think what I really am so curious about as well is how deeply personal it is. There’s some fantastic research that just came out last week, actually, from the field of positive psychology. This fantastic researcher, Dr. Alison Bishop, just published this fantastic paper on resilience last week. She’s basically saying that our resilience styles are deeply personal to the point where we almost have a resilience signature.
Becky: Now, that’s an interesting term, isn’t it? A resilience signature.
Gemma: It’s so beautiful to me. It just gives you that chance to explore your resilience ingredients, like how do you move through these periods of grief? In her article, she also says, by the way, there’s lots of scientists that suggest that you really need to sit with the discomfort and the horrendous emotions and the grief, but it’s when you feel that you can start to rise from it, how do you do that? I think that’s just so fascinating.
There’ll be strategies that you use that are deeply personal and probably very different, even between both of you, that go anything from– They might be physical, spiritual, emotional, cognitive, practical. It’s this that’s really beautiful because you both will have very different signatures, but you will have a lot of resources, both individually but also together. As a couple, you’re bringing the resources together to share the resilience.
Becky: What other resources might you suggest apart from humor?
Gemma: There’s hundreds. In positive psychology, there’s a whole philosophy around something called character strengths, which is what I mentioned. Within character strengths, these are our most positive traits of being human, and there are 24 of these, such as hope, love, perseverance, social intelligence, zest, courage. There’s lots here. If we take a strengths approach to looking at your resilience, the theories say that strengths are your resilience tools they are your resources. What normally happens is that they’re so natural to you, they just play out without you even noticing.
Becky: [crosstalk] You don’t even realise.
Gemma: Yes. The humor there is just one very, very specific example to you guys. There will be lots of other resources you were also using. Hope, courage, teamwork, perseverance, lots of these are going to be there as well. It’s just so interesting if we start to look at what else was happening.
Becky: If a fertility couple sat down and thought about the strengths that they have individually and then as a partnership, would that be a useful process? For example, someone might sit down and think, “Oh, actually, I am very hopeful. I have courage. I have a zest for life.” Do you think that if a fertility couple identified those strengths, that that might be useful?
Gemma: I think it’s a really useful thing to do for anybody, especially in this context. I haven’t personally practiced this yet in this arena, but I think what I do see in my coaching is that it’s just so brilliant for anybody to realize they’ve got strengths. We’re so British, and we all just have a natural tendency to have a negativity. We lean to everything that’s going wrong, and we look at all of our weaknesses all the time. What I love about positive psychology is it just shifts you into that positive space for a moment, and you start to appreciate what you’ve really got.
Ben: That’s interesting because I was having some counseling myself recently, actually, for an issue or two. My counselor said one thing, and he said, “How often do you experience joy?” to me. I listed a few examples, but it was a rather pitiful amount. When I was put under the microscope there, I couldn’t immediately say it. I think the point was, he was trying to say that there are many, many moments in life where you can see the joy in something, and should celebrate and try and see it a bit more. This morning, I had an extremely nice bowl of Greek yogurt. [laughter] I remember saying to Becky, “This is really, really good.” That’s a tiny moment. I’m glad I said it because why just be quiet? I said it.
Becky: I think that’s very interesting. I think that’s also about allowing yourself to experience joy, giving yourself the permission and freedom to experience joy.
Gemma: I haven’t been through IVF personally, but I have deep empathy for anyone that has. I just think whatever you can do to put in that’s positive and supportive for yourself to help you foster self-compassion, being gentle on yourself, trying to just soothe the distressing self-talk that I imagine comes with every hurdle, I just think can only be a good thing. I guess what I’m trying to say is there’s a huge power in positivity. We’re not talking toxic positivity. We’re not talking having to be happy, having to be joyful. We’re talking about mining the resources that lay-
Becky: [crosstalk] [unintelligible 00:15:55] already have.
Gemma: -in your positivity, like hope and courage, and perseverance.
Ben: Those things, they need to be, in some cases, coaxed out of you a bit, don’t they? If there are fertility patients listening, what are they saying? Are they going to say to their counselors, if they’re using one, could I have a bit of positive psychology, or are they just going to seek out a positive psychology coach, such as yourself, or fertility coach maybe for that extra sort of help?
Gemma: Really great question. Maybe there’s two points. I think any support you get is just going to be great because I think counseling is so, so powerful. I think the relationship with the counselor is just huge as well because it’s just such a support, equally with the coach. Whatever coach you get will be great. I think coaching and therapy can go hand in hand really beautifully. Positive psychology is a particular type of science and a particular flavor of coaching. I think any coach would be really great.
Positive psychology has the benefits of being a well-being science. It deeply understands what it takes to support our well-being. There can just be lots in there that a positive psychology coach can give you or help you explore other things, like how to bring flow state into your life, like what do you love doing? Just giving yourself a moment to think about the things you love in life that you could start to engineer in through this really difficult time, what do you feel like doing? Things like this.
Becky: You mentioned toxic positivity. Is that where someone is forcing themselves to be positive? Is that what you mean by that?
Gemma: [crosstalk] Yes, I think so. I think there’s a lot of this in the media at the moment. I just think it just sums up a false positivity, or like you must be joyful, you must pick yourself up now, come on, let’s go, let’s be happy. It’s just ridiculous.
Becky: Which is actually quite British and old-fashioned in a way, because–
Gemma: [crosstalk] Yes. Just the power of being positive psychology is not that. It’s just that there’s lots of powerful tools that you can help use in positivity that generally has to happen from within you. If it does, it can be really supportive. There’s research about hope and how hope is just a very, very powerful resource. Obviously, in the world of fertility, we’re playing with hope constantly, and it’s being extinguished regularly, it’s being reignited regularly. It’s just having an awareness of hope and how important it is and powerful it is. It’s even there or not, it’s just really helpful for someone to understand.
Ben: I wanted to ask then, because there will be people listening who like the idea of having this sort of outside help, whether it’s a resource face-to-face, such as with yourself, Gemma, or something online, or a bit of both, from the coaching perspective. A lot of patients are very stressed. They’re very financially stretched before their fertility treatment, and they’d rather not be going through the fertility treatment.
Wonderful as it is to be able to have that option to be helped, they’d rather not go through it. They get a bit stressed. Are you saying is the approach that people considering IVF treatment, perhaps at the start of the journey, should be thinking, let’s have a game plan, let’s have a coach helping us from the very start, like a coach at the gym, from the very start, being your help all the way through it? Is that what you’re saying?
Gemma: I don’t know if there’s research there yet to show that it’s fruitful, but I would personally always think of my team if I was going into a challenge. Personally, just going through a divorce, definitely, my strategy was, who’s in my team? How am I going to get through this? This is going to be a long haul, very long endurance test, very different to IVF fertility journeys, I know. I consciously thought, “Right. I need this person, this person, this person.”
One was a counselor, one was a coach. I did personally find the coaching really, really helpful. It’s very practical and enables you to really make plans, have goals, strategy. That’s where the strategies come to the fore that you decide work for you at that time, and the coach can help guide you. Yes, I think it could be really useful.
Becky: That’s really interesting. It’s very practical, and I think could be very helpful for fertility patients. One thing I want to just look at briefly is hope because hope is quite ephemeral, isn’t it? It’s something that, for me, has always been in the background, never quite sure whether I can keep it going, particularly during the journey of the ups and downs of infertility. Some days, I remember during our journey feeling very hopeful when embryos were developing, feeling very hopeful, and then all our dreams would be shattered, and then having to somehow find that hope again.
I think we refer to it in episode one, where we were watching Mo Farah in the Olympics, and something in us said to us six months after we lost Elsie, “Let’s go for it again.” An inspiration from another person, so Mo Farah, fantastic guy, inspired us, inspired our hope. I’m quite interested in hope, and I just wondered if you wanted to ask us any questions about hope, or we can have a chat about it. What do you think?
Gemma: I find hope so fascinating. You said it really beautifully. It’s an incredible construct and phenomenon. It’s an incredible gift, actually. It’s really interesting because in positive psychology, it’s a character strength. It’s also a cognition, so it’s part of how we think as humans. It’s just really fascinating and it’s very malleable. I’m really personally fascinated with how you hold hope long-term, like long-distance. I just love to ask you what did keep you going? Because hope is really incredible. It’s basically a motivator. There has been some research in couples that have gone through IVF, and they have found they’re very high in hope.
Then they’ve used basically hope interventions to help support them, and it has really significantly buffered against the distress of the IVF journey. Hope is this incredible powerful resource, actually. It’s fascinating because it’s a long-term candle in the light. It’s like a flame that’s lit. It can flicker in and out, but it feels like in your journey, is it the thing that kept you going? You didn’t give up. I’m so curious about what people who do go on this long-haul endurance test, like a 100-mile marathon, you don’t know when it’s going to end. We don’t know what are the twists and turns are going to be like. What did keep you going?
Ben: I think of the word hope, and then you think of the word strength, which is another one, isn’t it? Where are we? Strength, hope, resilience, they’re sort of in the same bed. I think strength is an interesting one because I think when you go through adversities in life or difficulties in life that both Becky and I have been through, I think there is this topping up of the tank of strength. From the strength comes the hope, to me. That’s maybe the way I look at it. We just did it, didn’t we? It wasn’t working, but we did keep going. It’s very hard to know because it was a while ago, too.
Was it a conversation that we had where we said, “No, let’s keep going,” or did we just keep going? I can’t remember. We talked a lot about it all the time. Then we looked at our options, and we realized that IVF treatment wasn’t going to work for us, and we moved over to donor conception. Then I have to say, we felt a sense of hope. Just looking at the stats, it was 70% chance of it working, not 5%. That gave us hope. That was an information-based hope, I suppose you could call it, male sort of way. We knew our chances were better.
We see this from the patients we help in our professional life as well, who move over to donor conception after very, very difficult times with their own eggs. They see the high chances and the cumulative chances of succeeding after three cycles, 90%, things like that. This gives them a pulse of strength. If you look at fertility treatment as this journey that you just have to keep going and keep going to the options that are going to suit you best, you’ll eventually succeed because the options are out there.
Becky: We have to point out that not everyone succeeds. We’re very lucky because there are a minority of listeners, I’m sure, who have tried and tried and tried and never succeeded. We’re going to do an episode on that, on loss and how people deal with that loss. In terms of hope and the stats, yes, I remember up north we were sitting in our kitchen. Ben came in, and he went, “[unintelligible 00:24:22], 73% chance of success.” I was like, “Oh my God.” I was still grieving the loss of my own eggs. That is a grief. I think I always say that to patients. You’re grieving the loss of your genes, your history, to a certain extent. I remember being blown away.
I also found it hard to take on the whole donor conception idea. We did have six months of counseling, trying to come to terms with the fact that I, and particularly me, I’m afraid, Ben, as a woman, would carry someone else’s egg. We talk about this a lot in episodes and stuff. I think for me as well, I think determination weirdly is connected with hope. I’m not quite sure why, but I know that I’m a very determined person, and I know Ben is very determined. I think also that determination can come through a strength, and it can come from your past role models. My father was a very determined person and very energetic. He always continued to throw himself 100% into life in its many forms. For me, that was an inspiration.
Ben: The first time I realized you’re a very determined person was actually before our fertility journey. It was when I played you table tennis. Do not play Becky at table tennis. [laughter] You’re going to lose. It’s going to be messy. Seriously, Becky is the best defender in table tennis. It’s remarkable.
Becky: You had hope that you would beat me. Is that correct?
Ben: [crosstalk] I don’t think I did. My hopes were dashed.
Becky: [crosstalk] No, never.
Ben: The point is, it was sort of like your sporting determination, if that’s the right word, was there for me to see. It may be that this plays out in people listening today, that there may be something that they’re very good and determined at.
Becky: Like sport.
Ben: Gemma, you’re the expert, not me. They may be thinking, “What have I really, really worked at in my life?” Maybe think about those moments where you really went for it, because maybe that gives you the resilience [unintelligible 00:26:25].
Becky: [crosstalk] Gives you hope.
Gemma: It’s so fascinating, isn’t it? I was just thinking, Ben, there was a little hint there about maybe your resilience signature, like the ingredients to resilience, because you can be very practical and inform yourself with knowledge. I think I heard that in Mike and Jess’s story that I listened to in a previous episode, where I think Jess described being completely broken after one of the huge hurdles they faced. Then Mike picked up what sounded like the hope. He picked up the ability to go and do his research, and he found another option. Hope is basically a playing field of options.
If you have options, you have hope. If you don’t, hope just seems to die flat on its face. It can quickly be reignited the minute you find options. In your resilience, part of your resilience is being able to be practical enough to go and do the research. It’s like empowering yourself with knowledge and finding solutions and options can be hugely hopeful. As you said, it does start to all intertwine. Hope is a resource for resilience because it’s a strength.
In strength, in positive psychology, they give you energy, they’re motivating, they can be this energy force. That’s really fascinating because it’s like, look how much the hope can give you the motivation to keep going or go for the next round or go to the next– What’s next? The next twist and turn on the 100-mile marathon. It takes you to the next step on the way.
Ben: This goes much further, doesn’t it, than those original words that were given to us, which is just, “Oh, keep going. It’ll be fine. This is much more.”
Becky: That’s really interesting. I loved the image you had of the flickering candle and how sometimes it’s blown out, but then sometimes it reignites, and then it flickers, and then it’s burning brightly. Actually, that takes me on to the more spiritual side of hope, which I think people may access, or they may not. I’m not religious, but I definitely have a spiritual side. I know that in times of deep despair, something otherworldly has been there. I don’t know. In times of great stress, definitely.
It’s almost a bit like– I don’t know if anyone ever guesses, maybe I’m completely nuts, but I look around and I think I’ve seen someone in the corner, and then I turn back and they’re not there. It’s almost like when you have a childhood imaginary friend. It’s like that sense of an otherness, which gives me hope because I think there’s so much more to this world spiritually than everything that we see day-to-day, like a cup of coffee, or there’s more to it. Then from that, I find hope. I certainly did when Elsie died.
Ben: There’ll be people who perhaps share that sense of spiritual and a sort of numinous quality about getting strength from things around you. There’ll be people who may be interested in Buddhism, for example, or they might have a religion or personal beliefs that also gives them strength. It’s interesting what you say, Becky, that you felt a force helping you along a bit. To me, I’m not sure I feel those kinds of things, but I do understand that we are not alone in this world, and perhaps in nature, there is something that is holding us in some way, cradling us in some way. That’s all I can suggest.
Gemma: It’s so fascinating. I just have goosebumps when you say that because to me, from my perspective, that sounds very much like it’s a signature, part of your resilience style. Dr. Bishop suggests there’s a spiritual element to a resilience signature. Yes, we’re human, and this is just fascinating. I guess the point is whatever it takes for you to get through it. Isn’t it incredible how, when you actually unpack this, isn’t this something you can do in a coaching space? This is why I love coaching is because it gives you the space and time to actually just dig into this stuff and look what we can find, like humor, hope, spirituality.
That’s just three components that are probably very likely to be your character strengths, but they’re also part of your resilience style. I guess what’s so lovely is that even when you might be feeling so alone and so stranded in this journey, is that you do have resources and you’re not alone. There are tools right there that you probably will use without realizing, but you aren’t alone. You have these amazing resources, which I think is just gorgeous. If anything, it gives someone hope that they can move through this horrendous journey.
Becky: It’s interesting that you mentioned nature because, of course, I’ve easily thought of trees [laughs] and a tree going out into nature. It may seem like such a small thing, but going for a walk in nature, particularly in a wood or a forest, if possible, an ancient forest, which would be amazing, like Sherwood Forest or wherever, or being by the sea, is, I think, hopeful because I think nature, personally, this is just for me, I’m not sure if, Ben, you feel this, but personally, I find nature very hopeful and inspiring. Look at spring.
Ben: I’m also sensitive to that, actually. It may be more to feelings on the skin. For example, we’re lucky enough to live by the sea. I was taking a walk by the sea on a slightly warmer spring day the other day. I felt the temperature, the particular cold on my skin, and it was a lovely feeling. It was a tactile feeling. I think there’s a tactility in nature, which is very, you said, going through a wood, but walking by the sea or just going for a walk away from the bustle of crowds on your own or together if you’re a couple going through fertility, just that can help.
Gemma: Hugely. Isn’t that just amazing, Becky, that you said your sense of hope, you’ve got a sense of hope from seeing spring each year. It’s incredible. There’s just these moments that are really powerful, though, that can help you. These, perhaps, are your ingredients to how you get through such adversity. Equally, from a positive psychology perspective, in your character strength, special magic ingredients, or special makeup of your character strengths, you are high in hope.
Your hope gets ignited in loads of different situations. For you, your hope can get ignited by seeing spring. It’s so gorgeous. It’s right there. It depends what you do, where you put yourself. Your strengths come to life and right there to help you.
Becky: Would you encourage couples going through the trauma of infertility to try and access their hope through maybe even the tiny things in life, like the yogurt? [laughs] The Greek yogurt with the honey this morning, you found a moment of joy, didn’t you?
Ben: The small things in life.
Becky: The small things in life.
Gemma: Strengths when they’re ignited, they can be in small, medium, large doses of energy, and they give you energy and positive energy. Even discovering you have strengths, then finding out what they are. There’s 24, and then you do a survey, and it gets ranked, so your strongest strengths come to the top. The ones you use the most are muscles. Knowing those can be so insightful. It’s just basically creating a deep self-awareness of who you are and how you behave and react can just be so empowering in any situation. I wonder if especially in this, because there’s so many resources there that have helped. Sounds like they might have helped you through the journey.
Ben: Just to draw to a close, I think what you seem to be saying, in essence, is the idea of this is an aspect of mental well-being that you need to gravitate towards as a fertility patient. I think we’re very lucky that we’re seeing the emotional support side of fertility, going in this direction. Gemma, I wanted to thank you so much.
Becky: [crosstalk] Thank you so much.
Ben: It’s been absolutely fascinating to hear your views and your suggestions for the kind of help that we can seek out. Thank you for coming in.
Gemma: Oh, such a pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Becky: You’ve been listening to Becky & Ben’s Fertility Spotlight. Check out the podcast website, fertility-spotlight.com. Our social media is facebook.com/fertilityspotlight and instagram.com/fertilityspotlight.
Ben: Please comment, share, or subscribe. You can also make a donation if you liked what you heard. Just to say, always speak to a healthcare professional for medical advice unique to you.
Becky: Join us next time for our donor embryo guests. Remember, don’t despair.
Ben: We’ll get there.
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Resilience During IVF Treatment? You Already Have It.
Our guest blogger this week is positive psychology coach Gemma Duffy. She argues that resilience, alongside other coping qualities, is a natural ability we all possess.
I’ve always been fascinated by resilience journeys – by the stories of how people endure hardship yet still manage to keep moving forward. I devour the memoirs and autobiographies of arctic explorers and individuals who push the limits of human capability. To me, fertility, infertility and IVF sit in that same realm: a profound test of resilience and endurance.
As a positive psychology practitioner, I drew on the academic study of resilience in my interview on the Fertility Spotlight podcast (see below). I hoped to honour the strength of those on their fertility journey and offer insights that support their personal experience.
Resilience has become something of a cultural buzzword. It’s often used to suggest a kind of unshakeable mental toughness, a heroic ability to endure against all the odds. The trouble with this framing, however, is that it can imply that if someone is struggling or doesn’t bounce back immediately, they must somehow lack resilience. It becomes a binary concept: either you’re resilient, or you’re not.
However, in positive psychology, resilience is perceived in a much more flexible way: resilience becomes understood not as a fixed trait but as a dynamic, ongoing experience which is supported by a range of personal resources.
The quotation below, from a resilience study in the workplace, is a favourite of mine:
“The practical approach taken by a positive psychology coach is that resilience is something to do rather than be.”
Recent research by Dr. Alison Bishop suggests that resilience is not a one-size-fits-all phenomenon. She suggests resilience is personalised and happens in a progressive cycle. In her resilience cycle model, Bishop implies that people move through a resilience cycle in a way that is unique to them: moving from adversity, to aftermath, to recovery and into adaptation. What’s more, she suggests that each of us may have a unique ‘resilience signature’ whereby we each deal with adversity in different ways, ranging from social, physical, practical, financial, spiritual, cognitive and emotional.
This thinking really resonated with me when I recorded our podcast episode and noticed that Ben’s resilience signature reflected domains such as pragmatism and spirituality (seeking options, feeling supported by something larger than us). Becky’s domains, on the other hand, were social (listen to her story about the taxi driver) and emotional (how she finds hope in the natural cycles of the seasons).
In their stories, both Becky and Ben demonstrated a rich variety of resourceful strategies as they coped with the multiple adversities they faced. Their unique character strengths were clearly present too: strengths that seemed to include perseverance, humour, hope and spirituality.
So what does this mean for people on their fertility journey – whether before, during or after their treatment? Being aware of one’s own resilience signature – the personal strategies and strengths we naturally lean on when facing adversity – could be valuable in the context of fertility. I believe this awareness not only provides practical ways to navigate difficult moments, but also supports the deeper processes of restoring, recovering, and ultimately continuing forward.
I believe that within coaching, it’s possible to explore the ingredients of resilience by gently uncovering and illuminating how people repair, return and adapt from adversity. This can include allowing space for emotions after a distressing event. Clients can attune to their unique strengths and become aware of how these interact with their recovery and buffer against future adversity.
The role of a coach could help clients feel connected and supported in what can be an isolating experience. Working on how to move forward with focus and attention can help boost clients’ feelings of autonomy and competence, which are important psychological needs that make up our self-determination and are important for our wellbeing.
In my coaching practice, I often invite clients to pay specific attention to how they moved through a setback. Can they describe what was happening? What helped? By doing this, I try to illuminate their personal resources.
Even without a coach, it can still be valuable to build self-awareness around your own resilience style. One way to begin is by reflecting on a few simple but powerful questions:
These questions are gentle entry points into understanding the patterns, resources, and strengths that make up your unique resilience signature. And in recognising the quiet ways you heal, persevere, and hope, you begin to see resilience as a reminder that, even in the most challenging chapters of the fertility journey, you are never without inner resourcefulness.
To hear Gemma’s full interview, listen to the podcast (see below for her specific episode).
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Becky: Welcome one and all to Becky & Ben’s Fertility Spotlight. I’m Becky.
Ben: I’m Ben.
Becky: We’ve helped thousands of IVF couples, and we’re proud parents of Ida and Coral, two amazing donor-conceived children.
Ben: In this episode, we’re talking about resilience, and our special guest, Gemma, who’s a positive psychology coach with a keen interest in fertility.
Becky: Being positive is so important, but how can you be when it’s so tough?
Ben: Just to say, our podcast is general information only for a personalized diagnosis. Always speak to a medical professional.
Becky: Let’s explore resilience and how we can truly build it.
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Becky: In this episode, we’ll be talking about resilience. We’re delighted to have Gemma here to help us explore resilience and the journey that we went through. Certainly myself, I don’t think about it that much, but when I do think about the hardship, and I do question how we got through it.
Ben: Absolutely. I think every fertility patient would say the same thing, that it doesn’t go according to plan most of the time. It takes longer most of the time to achieve it. There are some very lucky people out there who succeed first time, but they’re in the minority. For us, it was a good five years. We didn’t know when it was going to work finally, although it did finally work for us. It was very, very tough on us. It really challenged us in terms of the inner strength that we had to bring out to get through it. I think every patient would say this, that they had to draw on some kind of resources, sometimes they didn’t know they had to get through it.
Becky: I’m sure people listening today who are going through a very difficult time or have been through a very difficult time in their fertility journey will relate to this episode because there are so many questions out there on where do you find your resilience, where do you find your strength, how do you manage to keep hopeful through this never-ending journey, this emotional roller coaster where one moment things may be going well, another moment things may be just awful and you’re rock bottom. Also, you just don’t know when it’s going to end.
Ben: You don’t. You have well-meaning friends and the vast majority of people who know about your fertility treatment, and we know some people keep it very confidential, but those who know what you’re going through, bless them, don’t often say the right thing. For example, the amount of times people have said to us, “Oh, be strong, be strong,” or “Relax,” or “It’s going to be okay,” these kinds of sentiments, although well-meant, didn’t really help us. We had to dig deeper, didn’t we, to get through it.
Becky: We did. We had counseling, and that really helped. It’s a long process. That’s why we’re so delighted to have Gemma here today to take us through positivity and the strategies or the ways of coping and discovering where our positivity comes from.
Ben: Before we bring Gemma in, just one thing from me. That is, in the olden days, as they used to say, when we had treatment, we saw a counselor. That’s great, and there are lots of wonderful fertility counselors out there. Today, there is an emergence of even greater help, such as Gemma. Gemma is a positive psychology coach, and I know she’s interested in the fertility journey. We’re seeing more of that. Counseling is great, but people with a particular niche on really thinking about the well-being.
Becky: How they cope day to day.
Ben: Gemma, I wanted to ask this question. I know you’re an expert in all areas of the psychology aspect of going through it. There’ll be people listening to this going, “Right. I’m about to start on my journey. I’m halfway through it or whatever.” What sort of strategies do you think they should be looking at, apart from seeing a counselor or trying to be strong? Can they learn to be strong?
Gemma: The thing that is really encouraging and hopefully hopeful is that there’s a whole field out there that’s researching these things, the strategies, the resources. There’s so much in positive psychology that I think can be applied to fertility. I’m personally fascinated in feats of human endeavor, which I would say anyone on a fertility journey is experiencing that. I’m in awe of anyone that can go through any of it. It’s just huge. There’s so much we can mine basically from the world of positive psychology. Just to establish what that is, if you’re not familiar with it, it’s the science of wellbeing and optimal human functioning.
Whereas psychology, as usual, which is incredible, that looks at what’s happening when we’re struggling and perhaps not at our optimum functioning. Positive psychology looks at everything that’s going really well. There’s not a one-size-fits-all solution, obviously. I think the beautiful thing about what you said, having counseling is incredible. I think the more support someone can put into their support suite, so you might have a counselor, a coach, your clinic, your family, or friends, it’s just broadening that circle to include everything you think might support. What is really beautiful about coaching is that that can be explored in the coaching space.
Becky: What we’re going to do today is just shake things up a bit. We’re going to get you to interview us about our resilience, where we found our hope in our fertility journey. You’re very welcome, Gemma, just to kick off. Ask us any question. You can ask us anything you like, either of us or both of us.
Gemma: Yes, I do because I listened to your first episode, and I was just completely struck by how incredible you are to have come through such a long, long, long journey full of such adversity. I was really touched and moved by all of the experiences you shared. From my perspective, in positive psychology world, I was just struck with how incredibly resourceful you were. I was just so struck when you talked about humour. I know you talked about it, I think, in the first episode.
Becky: In episode one.
Gemma: Yes. It was just like this revelation to me that who would have thought in such dark times, humour was playing such a strong role for you? When you talked about watching the film, it was incredible. This, to me, was a really amazing example of, in positive psychology, what’s called character strengths. It’s the strength of human character, the big red threads that go through your life. Your most positive natural traits, I think, for you, is possibly humour, Becky.
Becky: Definitely. It’s interesting you bring that up because I come from a family where my mum was constantly laughing about stuff. She was incredibly sweet and funny, and she would weep with laughter over episodes of Dallas and just find things incredibly funny. It was part of our family dynamic. I’m one of four siblings. I’m the youngest. I remember growing up in this atmosphere, I suppose, of joy, really, and of people laughing. It was interesting because, reflecting back on my childhood, sex was never talked about. Emotional subjects were never really talked about, but the way that we coped with life was through humour.
For me, growing up in that atmosphere with my mum always laughing, my dad wasn’t such a comedian, but he appreciated it. My mum held us all together. She really inspired me, as my dad did. I grew up laughing a lot. Then, when I started to have hardships in life, I realised that the only way I could really cope was to rely on humour. Obviously, the opposite of comedy is tragedy. My mum died when I was 23. That was quite challenging. I didn’t laugh for a very long time. Then I was living in Australia. I was doing an acting course and I realised the power of comedy again. I was reminded of my mother, and I was reminded of how delightful it is to laugh.
I found my laughter again, and I went out with an Aussie guy who was really funny. Gradually, comedy came back into my life. After that, I realised, okay, joy is still there. You can find it in life, however hard things are. Through my 20s and 30s, I lost quite a few people I was close to and again experienced rock bottom, extremely hard times, but somehow managed to crawl out of those pits of despair, and laugh about it because it just saved me. Any reference to comedy, any comic film, I know Ben is the same here, uplifts me and helps me. Hence, in episode one, watching Tootsie was the way that I could escape and, for just a short time, laugh, even though I had the despair of Elsie.
Ben: Tootsie, as we said in episode one, it may seem extraordinary to people that we come home with terrible news about our pregnancy loss and watch Tootsie. It almost felt a physical sense that this film was going deeper than any other film that we could– Because we watched some serious films as well that didn’t really work, but the comedy worked. That struck me again how leaning towards the lighter side of life to get through things, it’s closer than you think. We grasped it quite quickly when we realized the funny was better than the serious in that particular context.
Becky: If you look at Shakespeare, he has a comic scene, then he has a tragic scene, or a dramatic scene, and then he has a comic scene. He knew how fused tragedy and comedy were. He was such a genius that he knew that even in great pain, you could find humour. That’s what is so brilliant about him and about many great playwrights, in my opinion.
Ben: I grew up in quite a large family as well, but it wasn’t a happy family compared to your family. There were lots of challenges along the way. I often say to people, with the greatest respect to my siblings, that if you could get through my family, you can get through anything. For me, the resilience came from that, and it really did come to the rescue.
Becky: You sometimes call yourself a survivor.
Ben: The two best things that happened to me in life, one, meeting you, [laughter] two, surviving my childhood. Those are the two key things. I didn’t talk about the difficulties of my childhood for many years, and I won’t get into too many details here either, but suffice to say that it was very, very challenging. I do remember leaning towards humour during that period as well.
Gemma: So fascinating, isnt’ it? I think what I really am so curious about as well is how deeply personal it is. There’s some fantastic research that just came out last week, actually, from the field of positive psychology. This fantastic researcher, Dr. Alison Bishop, just published this fantastic paper on resilience last week. She’s basically saying that our resilience styles are deeply personal to the point where we almost have a resilience signature.
Becky: Now, that’s an interesting term, isn’t it? A resilience signature.
Gemma: It’s so beautiful to me. It just gives you that chance to explore your resilience ingredients, like how do you move through these periods of grief? In her article, she also says, by the way, there’s lots of scientists that suggest that you really need to sit with the discomfort and the horrendous emotions and the grief, but it’s when you feel that you can start to rise from it, how do you do that? I think that’s just so fascinating.
There’ll be strategies that you use that are deeply personal and probably very different, even between both of you, that go anything from– They might be physical, spiritual, emotional, cognitive, practical. It’s this that’s really beautiful because you both will have very different signatures, but you will have a lot of resources, both individually but also together. As a couple, you’re bringing the resources together to share the resilience.
Becky: What other resources might you suggest apart from humor?
Gemma: There’s hundreds. In positive psychology, there’s a whole philosophy around something called character strengths, which is what I mentioned. Within character strengths, these are our most positive traits of being human, and there are 24 of these, such as hope, love, perseverance, social intelligence, zest, courage. There’s lots here. If we take a strengths approach to looking at your resilience, the theories say that strengths are your resilience tools they are your resources. What normally happens is that they’re so natural to you, they just play out without you even noticing.
Becky: [crosstalk] You don’t even realise.
Gemma: Yes. The humor there is just one very, very specific example to you guys. There will be lots of other resources you were also using. Hope, courage, teamwork, perseverance, lots of these are going to be there as well. It’s just so interesting if we start to look at what else was happening.
Becky: If a fertility couple sat down and thought about the strengths that they have individually and then as a partnership, would that be a useful process? For example, someone might sit down and think, “Oh, actually, I am very hopeful. I have courage. I have a zest for life.” Do you think that if a fertility couple identified those strengths, that that might be useful?
Gemma: I think it’s a really useful thing to do for anybody, especially in this context. I haven’t personally practiced this yet in this arena, but I think what I do see in my coaching is that it’s just so brilliant for anybody to realize they’ve got strengths. We’re so British, and we all just have a natural tendency to have a negativity. We lean to everything that’s going wrong, and we look at all of our weaknesses all the time. What I love about positive psychology is it just shifts you into that positive space for a moment, and you start to appreciate what you’ve really got.
Ben: That’s interesting because I was having some counseling myself recently, actually, for an issue or two. My counselor said one thing, and he said, “How often do you experience joy?” to me. I listed a few examples, but it was a rather pitiful amount. When I was put under the microscope there, I couldn’t immediately say it. I think the point was, he was trying to say that there are many, many moments in life where you can see the joy in something, and should celebrate and try and see it a bit more. This morning, I had an extremely nice bowl of Greek yogurt. [laughter] I remember saying to Becky, “This is really, really good.” That’s a tiny moment. I’m glad I said it because why just be quiet? I said it.
Becky: I think that’s very interesting. I think that’s also about allowing yourself to experience joy, giving yourself the permission and freedom to experience joy.
Gemma: I haven’t been through IVF personally, but I have deep empathy for anyone that has. I just think whatever you can do to put in that’s positive and supportive for yourself to help you foster self-compassion, being gentle on yourself, trying to just soothe the distressing self-talk that I imagine comes with every hurdle, I just think can only be a good thing. I guess what I’m trying to say is there’s a huge power in positivity. We’re not talking toxic positivity. We’re not talking having to be happy, having to be joyful. We’re talking about mining the resources that lay-
Becky: [crosstalk] [unintelligible 00:15:55] already have.
Gemma: -in your positivity, like hope and courage, and perseverance.
Ben: Those things, they need to be, in some cases, coaxed out of you a bit, don’t they? If there are fertility patients listening, what are they saying? Are they going to say to their counselors, if they’re using one, could I have a bit of positive psychology, or are they just going to seek out a positive psychology coach, such as yourself, or fertility coach maybe for that extra sort of help?
Gemma: Really great question. Maybe there’s two points. I think any support you get is just going to be great because I think counseling is so, so powerful. I think the relationship with the counselor is just huge as well because it’s just such a support, equally with the coach. Whatever coach you get will be great. I think coaching and therapy can go hand in hand really beautifully. Positive psychology is a particular type of science and a particular flavor of coaching. I think any coach would be really great.
Positive psychology has the benefits of being a well-being science. It deeply understands what it takes to support our well-being. There can just be lots in there that a positive psychology coach can give you or help you explore other things, like how to bring flow state into your life, like what do you love doing? Just giving yourself a moment to think about the things you love in life that you could start to engineer in through this really difficult time, what do you feel like doing? Things like this.
Becky: You mentioned toxic positivity. Is that where someone is forcing themselves to be positive? Is that what you mean by that?
Gemma: [crosstalk] Yes, I think so. I think there’s a lot of this in the media at the moment. I just think it just sums up a false positivity, or like you must be joyful, you must pick yourself up now, come on, let’s go, let’s be happy. It’s just ridiculous.
Becky: Which is actually quite British and old-fashioned in a way, because–
Gemma: [crosstalk] Yes. Just the power of being positive psychology is not that. It’s just that there’s lots of powerful tools that you can help use in positivity that generally has to happen from within you. If it does, it can be really supportive. There’s research about hope and how hope is just a very, very powerful resource. Obviously, in the world of fertility, we’re playing with hope constantly, and it’s being extinguished regularly, it’s being reignited regularly. It’s just having an awareness of hope and how important it is and powerful it is. It’s even there or not, it’s just really helpful for someone to understand.
Ben: I wanted to ask then, because there will be people listening who like the idea of having this sort of outside help, whether it’s a resource face-to-face, such as with yourself, Gemma, or something online, or a bit of both, from the coaching perspective. A lot of patients are very stressed. They’re very financially stretched before their fertility treatment, and they’d rather not be going through the fertility treatment.
Wonderful as it is to be able to have that option to be helped, they’d rather not go through it. They get a bit stressed. Are you saying is the approach that people considering IVF treatment, perhaps at the start of the journey, should be thinking, let’s have a game plan, let’s have a coach helping us from the very start, like a coach at the gym, from the very start, being your help all the way through it? Is that what you’re saying?
Gemma: I don’t know if there’s research there yet to show that it’s fruitful, but I would personally always think of my team if I was going into a challenge. Personally, just going through a divorce, definitely, my strategy was, who’s in my team? How am I going to get through this? This is going to be a long haul, very long endurance test, very different to IVF fertility journeys, I know. I consciously thought, “Right. I need this person, this person, this person.”
One was a counselor, one was a coach. I did personally find the coaching really, really helpful. It’s very practical and enables you to really make plans, have goals, strategy. That’s where the strategies come to the fore that you decide work for you at that time, and the coach can help guide you. Yes, I think it could be really useful.
Becky: That’s really interesting. It’s very practical, and I think could be very helpful for fertility patients. One thing I want to just look at briefly is hope because hope is quite ephemeral, isn’t it? It’s something that, for me, has always been in the background, never quite sure whether I can keep it going, particularly during the journey of the ups and downs of infertility. Some days, I remember during our journey feeling very hopeful when embryos were developing, feeling very hopeful, and then all our dreams would be shattered, and then having to somehow find that hope again.
I think we refer to it in episode one, where we were watching Mo Farah in the Olympics, and something in us said to us six months after we lost Elsie, “Let’s go for it again.” An inspiration from another person, so Mo Farah, fantastic guy, inspired us, inspired our hope. I’m quite interested in hope, and I just wondered if you wanted to ask us any questions about hope, or we can have a chat about it. What do you think?
Gemma: I find hope so fascinating. You said it really beautifully. It’s an incredible construct and phenomenon. It’s an incredible gift, actually. It’s really interesting because in positive psychology, it’s a character strength. It’s also a cognition, so it’s part of how we think as humans. It’s just really fascinating and it’s very malleable. I’m really personally fascinated with how you hold hope long-term, like long-distance. I just love to ask you what did keep you going? Because hope is really incredible. It’s basically a motivator. There has been some research in couples that have gone through IVF, and they have found they’re very high in hope.
Then they’ve used basically hope interventions to help support them, and it has really significantly buffered against the distress of the IVF journey. Hope is this incredible powerful resource, actually. It’s fascinating because it’s a long-term candle in the light. It’s like a flame that’s lit. It can flicker in and out, but it feels like in your journey, is it the thing that kept you going? You didn’t give up. I’m so curious about what people who do go on this long-haul endurance test, like a 100-mile marathon, you don’t know when it’s going to end. We don’t know what are the twists and turns are going to be like. What did keep you going?
Ben: I think of the word hope, and then you think of the word strength, which is another one, isn’t it? Where are we? Strength, hope, resilience, they’re sort of in the same bed. I think strength is an interesting one because I think when you go through adversities in life or difficulties in life that both Becky and I have been through, I think there is this topping up of the tank of strength. From the strength comes the hope, to me. That’s maybe the way I look at it. We just did it, didn’t we? It wasn’t working, but we did keep going. It’s very hard to know because it was a while ago, too.
Was it a conversation that we had where we said, “No, let’s keep going,” or did we just keep going? I can’t remember. We talked a lot about it all the time. Then we looked at our options, and we realized that IVF treatment wasn’t going to work for us, and we moved over to donor conception. Then I have to say, we felt a sense of hope. Just looking at the stats, it was 70% chance of it working, not 5%. That gave us hope. That was an information-based hope, I suppose you could call it, male sort of way. We knew our chances were better.
We see this from the patients we help in our professional life as well, who move over to donor conception after very, very difficult times with their own eggs. They see the high chances and the cumulative chances of succeeding after three cycles, 90%, things like that. This gives them a pulse of strength. If you look at fertility treatment as this journey that you just have to keep going and keep going to the options that are going to suit you best, you’ll eventually succeed because the options are out there.
Becky: We have to point out that not everyone succeeds. We’re very lucky because there are a minority of listeners, I’m sure, who have tried and tried and tried and never succeeded. We’re going to do an episode on that, on loss and how people deal with that loss. In terms of hope and the stats, yes, I remember up north we were sitting in our kitchen. Ben came in, and he went, “[unintelligible 00:24:22], 73% chance of success.” I was like, “Oh my God.” I was still grieving the loss of my own eggs. That is a grief. I think I always say that to patients. You’re grieving the loss of your genes, your history, to a certain extent. I remember being blown away.
I also found it hard to take on the whole donor conception idea. We did have six months of counseling, trying to come to terms with the fact that I, and particularly me, I’m afraid, Ben, as a woman, would carry someone else’s egg. We talk about this a lot in episodes and stuff. I think for me as well, I think determination weirdly is connected with hope. I’m not quite sure why, but I know that I’m a very determined person, and I know Ben is very determined. I think also that determination can come through a strength, and it can come from your past role models. My father was a very determined person and very energetic. He always continued to throw himself 100% into life in its many forms. For me, that was an inspiration.
Ben: The first time I realized you’re a very determined person was actually before our fertility journey. It was when I played you table tennis. Do not play Becky at table tennis. [laughter] You’re going to lose. It’s going to be messy. Seriously, Becky is the best defender in table tennis. It’s remarkable.
Becky: You had hope that you would beat me. Is that correct?
Ben: [crosstalk] I don’t think I did. My hopes were dashed.
Becky: [crosstalk] No, never.
Ben: The point is, it was sort of like your sporting determination, if that’s the right word, was there for me to see. It may be that this plays out in people listening today, that there may be something that they’re very good and determined at.
Becky: Like sport.
Ben: Gemma, you’re the expert, not me. They may be thinking, “What have I really, really worked at in my life?” Maybe think about those moments where you really went for it, because maybe that gives you the resilience [unintelligible 00:26:25].
Becky: [crosstalk] Gives you hope.
Gemma: It’s so fascinating, isn’t it? I was just thinking, Ben, there was a little hint there about maybe your resilience signature, like the ingredients to resilience, because you can be very practical and inform yourself with knowledge. I think I heard that in Mike and Jess’s story that I listened to in a previous episode, where I think Jess described being completely broken after one of the huge hurdles they faced. Then Mike picked up what sounded like the hope. He picked up the ability to go and do his research, and he found another option. Hope is basically a playing field of options.
If you have options, you have hope. If you don’t, hope just seems to die flat on its face. It can quickly be reignited the minute you find options. In your resilience, part of your resilience is being able to be practical enough to go and do the research. It’s like empowering yourself with knowledge and finding solutions and options can be hugely hopeful. As you said, it does start to all intertwine. Hope is a resource for resilience because it’s a strength.
In strength, in positive psychology, they give you energy, they’re motivating, they can be this energy force. That’s really fascinating because it’s like, look how much the hope can give you the motivation to keep going or go for the next round or go to the next– What’s next? The next twist and turn on the 100-mile marathon. It takes you to the next step on the way.
Ben: This goes much further, doesn’t it, than those original words that were given to us, which is just, “Oh, keep going. It’ll be fine. This is much more.”
Becky: That’s really interesting. I loved the image you had of the flickering candle and how sometimes it’s blown out, but then sometimes it reignites, and then it flickers, and then it’s burning brightly. Actually, that takes me on to the more spiritual side of hope, which I think people may access, or they may not. I’m not religious, but I definitely have a spiritual side. I know that in times of deep despair, something otherworldly has been there. I don’t know. In times of great stress, definitely.
It’s almost a bit like– I don’t know if anyone ever guesses, maybe I’m completely nuts, but I look around and I think I’ve seen someone in the corner, and then I turn back and they’re not there. It’s almost like when you have a childhood imaginary friend. It’s like that sense of an otherness, which gives me hope because I think there’s so much more to this world spiritually than everything that we see day-to-day, like a cup of coffee, or there’s more to it. Then from that, I find hope. I certainly did when Elsie died.
Ben: There’ll be people who perhaps share that sense of spiritual and a sort of numinous quality about getting strength from things around you. There’ll be people who may be interested in Buddhism, for example, or they might have a religion or personal beliefs that also gives them strength. It’s interesting what you say, Becky, that you felt a force helping you along a bit. To me, I’m not sure I feel those kinds of things, but I do understand that we are not alone in this world, and perhaps in nature, there is something that is holding us in some way, cradling us in some way. That’s all I can suggest.
Gemma: It’s so fascinating. I just have goosebumps when you say that because to me, from my perspective, that sounds very much like it’s a signature, part of your resilience style. Dr. Bishop suggests there’s a spiritual element to a resilience signature. Yes, we’re human, and this is just fascinating. I guess the point is whatever it takes for you to get through it. Isn’t it incredible how, when you actually unpack this, isn’t this something you can do in a coaching space? This is why I love coaching is because it gives you the space and time to actually just dig into this stuff and look what we can find, like humor, hope, spirituality.
That’s just three components that are probably very likely to be your character strengths, but they’re also part of your resilience style. I guess what’s so lovely is that even when you might be feeling so alone and so stranded in this journey, is that you do have resources and you’re not alone. There are tools right there that you probably will use without realizing, but you aren’t alone. You have these amazing resources, which I think is just gorgeous. If anything, it gives someone hope that they can move through this horrendous journey.
Becky: It’s interesting that you mentioned nature because, of course, I’ve easily thought of trees [laughs] and a tree going out into nature. It may seem like such a small thing, but going for a walk in nature, particularly in a wood or a forest, if possible, an ancient forest, which would be amazing, like Sherwood Forest or wherever, or being by the sea, is, I think, hopeful because I think nature, personally, this is just for me, I’m not sure if, Ben, you feel this, but personally, I find nature very hopeful and inspiring. Look at spring.
Ben: I’m also sensitive to that, actually. It may be more to feelings on the skin. For example, we’re lucky enough to live by the sea. I was taking a walk by the sea on a slightly warmer spring day the other day. I felt the temperature, the particular cold on my skin, and it was a lovely feeling. It was a tactile feeling. I think there’s a tactility in nature, which is very, you said, going through a wood, but walking by the sea or just going for a walk away from the bustle of crowds on your own or together if you’re a couple going through fertility, just that can help.
Gemma: Hugely. Isn’t that just amazing, Becky, that you said your sense of hope, you’ve got a sense of hope from seeing spring each year. It’s incredible. There’s just these moments that are really powerful, though, that can help you. These, perhaps, are your ingredients to how you get through such adversity. Equally, from a positive psychology perspective, in your character strength, special magic ingredients, or special makeup of your character strengths, you are high in hope.
Your hope gets ignited in loads of different situations. For you, your hope can get ignited by seeing spring. It’s so gorgeous. It’s right there. It depends what you do, where you put yourself. Your strengths come to life and right there to help you.
Becky: Would you encourage couples going through the trauma of infertility to try and access their hope through maybe even the tiny things in life, like the yogurt? [laughs] The Greek yogurt with the honey this morning, you found a moment of joy, didn’t you?
Ben: The small things in life.
Becky: The small things in life.
Gemma: Strengths when they’re ignited, they can be in small, medium, large doses of energy, and they give you energy and positive energy. Even discovering you have strengths, then finding out what they are. There’s 24, and then you do a survey, and it gets ranked, so your strongest strengths come to the top. The ones you use the most are muscles. Knowing those can be so insightful. It’s just basically creating a deep self-awareness of who you are and how you behave and react can just be so empowering in any situation. I wonder if especially in this, because there’s so many resources there that have helped. Sounds like they might have helped you through the journey.
Ben: Just to draw to a close, I think what you seem to be saying, in essence, is the idea of this is an aspect of mental well-being that you need to gravitate towards as a fertility patient. I think we’re very lucky that we’re seeing the emotional support side of fertility, going in this direction. Gemma, I wanted to thank you so much.
Becky: [crosstalk] Thank you so much.
Ben: It’s been absolutely fascinating to hear your views and your suggestions for the kind of help that we can seek out. Thank you for coming in.
Gemma: Oh, such a pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Becky: You’ve been listening to Becky & Ben’s Fertility Spotlight. Check out the podcast website, fertility-spotlight.com. Our social media is facebook.com/fertilityspotlight and instagram.com/fertilityspotlight.
Ben: Please comment, share, or subscribe. You can also make a donation if you liked what you heard. Just to say, always speak to a healthcare professional for medical advice unique to you.
Becky: Join us next time for our donor embryo guests. Remember, don’t despair.
Ben: We’ll get there.
[music]
[00:34:48] [END OF AUDIO]
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