[music]
Becky: This is Becky & Ben’s Fertility Spotlight.
Ben: With the UK’s top IVF podcast, helping patients find their feet on this notoriously tricky road.
Becky: Joining us today is Dr. Alison Short, the renowned music therapy educator, researcher, and clinician.
Ben: Remember, always speak to your doctor or clinic for advice specific to you.
Becky: Let’s get talking about the power of music and the ways it can help patients cope with the ups and downs of fertility treatment.
Ben: Alison, thank you so much for joining us today. When we listen to a piece of music, how does it affect our mind and body?
Alison Short: I think music is something that affects all of us, actually. It affects because we’re hearing sound. The vibration can affect our body. We interpret the sound in different ways. It affects our emotions and our thoughts about other music that we’ve heard, other circumstances where we’ve heard the music. It affects our associations with life. It affects how we feel in the world with our cultural associations. We might have come from a different language group or within our family culture. Our negative might have played the violin, and so we hear music from a violin, and it affects us.
We also know from music psychology that the whole brain lights up. We used to think that music was only on the right side of the brain, but now we know that music affects the entire brain. We dance with music. We feel like singing with music. Sometimes, the vibration in our body, we hear music, we want to respond in some way. There’s many different effects. There’s a lot of people who’ve been working on that in music psychology and in music therapy, which is my field.
Becky: What I’m going to focus on is that you looked closely at how music can help fertility patients. Can you tell us a bit more about that, please?
Alison: Yes. Firstly, I had a fertility practitioner, a doctor, approach me and say, “I’ve been trying to use music with my people.” She said, “I don’t know what music to use. I don’t know how best to use it, whether I’m doing the right thing.” Over a period of time, we developed several different projects to look at that. Firstly, we looked at how music could be used, just simply listening before procedures. We were looking very much at reducing anxiety. We know, and your listeners would know, how invasive and complicated fertility treatment could be and how much anxiety that fosters in so many different ways and many other emotions too, grief, and all other things as well.
We were looking particularly at anxiety. We developed a project in three phases. The first phase was simply listening to music before procedures. Music Star from Denmark was developed by music therapists, and it has a whole selection of different types of music. Within triangles of a star, in different colors, you can choose music that’s somewhat similar. People listen to the music. Because it was a research study, we took some data about whether it reduced anxiety.
The thing that was really surprising, even to the doctors, was the very high levels of anxiety. Now, that would not surprise your listeners. The doctors knew that people were anxious, but the extremely high levels of anxiety was more than the doctors expected. However, listening to music, even for 10 to 15 minutes before their procedure, made such a difference.
Ben: Are we saying that music can be holistic, a bit like acupuncture or Reiki, a positive psychology tool?
Alison: Certainly music can be holistic, yes. We can choose which parts of music we can use for particular reasons. Music can add a lot to our positive feelings and positive psychology. It can address emotional, physical, spiritual, social, all aspects of ourselves. In that sense, it’s holistic, but we may choose to use one aspect or another of the music for ourselves in particular circumstances. Within the studies that I’ve done, we’ve been looking particularly at the emotional and psychological side of things. There is no doubt that the physical side can help too. We tend to have a calming, rest and digest type of reaction to other things.
Now, you could say, well, that’s just in the mind, but of course, it’s in the body as well. If we need to move and get rid of some of the emotions that are built up inside us, we can use music to actually dance, jump, play musical instruments, get some of the feelings out through banging loudly on a piano or a guitar or dancing. Chaotically, to let some of the feelings out. We could also use music to calm ourselves. I think that’s where a lot of my work and my interest has been.
Becky: When’s the best time during IVF treatment to turn to music for help?
Alison: I think any time that suits you, really. I think everyone has their own journey, and it’s all a little different. Everyone has their own relationship to music. Some people might not have even thought of using music for themselves, but it’s something they could consider as a tool. Other people may be very used to using music. I’ve had someone who said, “Oh, I’d forgotten that I used to play the guitar. I think I might play the guitar a bit more.” It’ll help let some of those feelings out. I’ve had other people who said, “Oh, I never thought about using music to relax.” I think the best time is when you’ve thought about how to do it for yourself.
Empowering women, which is the second stage of my projects, was about helping women realize what music they could use for themselves and different ways that music could help them. Either a powerful song that could lead to discussion, to talk some of the feelings out, and talk some of the issues out, or some relaxation music just to learn how to relax, to go bit by bit through the body and relax little bits and pieces, and take time for yourself with the right music.
Someone suggested Cry Me a River as a song they would really like to use to express some of their feelings. Others that we’ve used is Frozen, the song from Frozen, Let It Go. We’ve used drumming and all different things. You could do that by yourself or with another, some active piece of music that you enjoy. Just physically express some of those feelings to get it out.
Ben: We spent a lot of time, didn’t we, Becky, during our treatment listening to music? I wanted to listen to a track that we listened to a lot during the five-year struggle that we had. It was church music, wasn’t it?
Becky: Ben is far more classically trained than I am in terms of music. He introduced me to John Taverner. I was blown away by this early music. Would you call it early music?
Ben: Definitely early music, 16th-century English church music. It was very transformative. It took us out of ourselves in a big way, which I know music can do. Let’s listen to this little bit of John Taverner.
[music]
Ben: Just amazing music, isn’t it? It just transports you to some celestial place. You need that during fertility treatment. You need to get out of yourself because life is a bit grim. Finding a bit of beauty in sound, we’ve often said on this podcast, you find beauty in music. Sometimes you need to close your eyes and just listen. That was a piece by John Taverner. It was performed by the choir of Queen’s College, Oxford, under Owen Rees.
Alison: Just commenting on that music that you’ve just heard, I think what’s very interesting and your listeners could take from that too, whether it’s exactly that music or whether it’s others, it was a very harmonious-sounding piece of music. It had a very gentle melodic change, very consonant harmonies, very slow rate of change of rhythm, and so forth. From a musical point of view, from the musical elements, that was a wonderful choice that you made there because it would help with the relaxing side of things, too.
We know from experience that relaxing music, a nice over-the-top type of melody, a clear foundation bass that doesn’t change too fast, harmonies that are fairly consonant or don’t change too often, and not too loud. Also, although there were words, I imagine it was probably Latin or something, it wasn’t really intelligible words. Often, using words takes us out of relaxation, makes us think about other things.
Something that’s either vague words or instrumental will help us with relaxing generally too. That certainly had beyond that, that’s just the elements, that’s just picking it apart. As a whole, that piece of music certainly did have a spiritual and uplifting quality to it, didn’t it? Something beyond yourselves, as you say.
Becky: Definitely. As you say, it took us beyond ourselves, which when you’re going through fertility treatment, at times it really helps to see beyond and to be uplifted.
Ben: To escape it almost.
Becky: Like an escape in order to remember that life is enormous and bigger than oneself and celestial, as you mentioned there.
Alison: Yes. I’m sure that some people would have spiritual backgrounds of one sort or another, many different types of spiritual backgrounds, but some people would use that to help them get through. Others may be actually shaking their fist at God in whichever way God is for them. There’s many reactions to all of that, too. Finding meaning despite the challenges of the journey is really important.
Ben: It seems amazing to me that the power of music, the way you actually absorb it, hasn’t been taken on by the medical profession more actively. Will that change in the future, do you think?
Alison: We keep trying. Music therapy as a profession has been around for quite some time, but still relatively new compared to other professions. There’s many aspects to ways that you could use music. Some people are quite dismissive about, oh, it’s just music, it’s just icing on the cake. People like myself, I do quite a lot of research around uses of music, general uses, but also fully music therapy uses, too. There’s many different ways you can use music to try and demonstrate the value of it. One of the things that I’ve developed is a better understanding with my colleague Jenny MacRitchie from Sheffield.
We’ve developed a better understanding of the different roles of people using music for health and well-being. If you think about music, you may just hear music in your environment. It may be in the supermarket at the end of the day, and you notice that there’s suddenly, you notice there’s some music. It might be that you deliberately put on music for yourself when you get home, and you’re tired, and you put on either some busy music to prep you up or some quiet music to match how you feel. You could use music for someone else that you’re caring for. You could attend a drumming group, a choir, or something like that.
I attend a choir myself. A very big area is other professionals using music. It could be physios, doctors, nurses, whoever using music. Music therapists are actually trained to use music in many different ways to look at the needs of the client, to look at the needs of the person, the consumer, and devise what type of music would be best. As we spoke about earlier, there’s many aspects of the person, physical, psychological, social, emotional, spiritual. The music therapist will help determine how we could use music to help someone.
Becky: If you were with a fertility patient before a procedure, what type of music should they listen to?
Alison: Each person will have different music that they particularly like. If I was with a person beforehand, I would be helping them figure out what music is best for them. I certainly have some generic ideas, but it’s not the same for everyone. Personally, I like classical music of many different types. That’s where I’ve come from. Not everyone has to like classical music, but there’s some classical music that you wouldn’t even think is classical music of some of the newer varieties of music that are quite relaxing too. I’d be looking for something that would help them in some way. I’d be talking with them first to find out what music they really like because something that you don’t like is not going to relax you, is it?
Ben: Speaking of relaxation, music can relax the nervous system. I think we know about that. Does it also make patients feel a bit less vulnerable and more in control of things?
Alison: Certainly, in my Stage 2 projects, I’ve done what I can to help educate people in how they could have some more control over the circumstances. Yes, indeed. I think using music is something that can make a big difference. I think back to even, well, I haven’t been through fertility treatment myself, but during childbirth, I used music right through. I had my kids in America way before people were doing much with music there, but I used music right through childbirth. They were like, “What’s that over there?” I suppose we’ll let you keep it on. It was an old boombox in the old days.
Becky: You mentioned that music empowers people. I imagine that in that context.
Alison: It was actually empowering. It was something I could do to help myself. Likewise, the people who are listening to this podcast can find music for them that they have something that you have control over because there’s so much you don’t have control over in a treatment context like this. So much where people say, “Do this now, do that then,” and just say, “Hey, just a minute, I want to take my headphones with me. I want to take my music with me.” All those types of things are really– it’s something that people can say, “No, this is me.” It’s personalizing, it’s humanizing.
Becky: Just moving away from empowerment, I’m going to introduce a bit of Henry Purcell, which is a very sad piece. It’s called When I Am Laid in Earth.
Alison: Oh, I know this piece very well.
Becky: Yes. We felt during our treatment, very sad at one point, and we listened to it a great deal. I want to play it now and see what you think about it.
[music]
When I am laid, am laid in earth,
May my wrongs create
No trouble, no trouble in thy breast;
Remember me, remember me,
But ah! forget my fate.
Remember me, but ah! forget my fate.
Remember me, remember me,
But ah! forget my fate.
Remember me, but ah! forget my fate.
Ben: Yes, those are the words, remember me. Fertility treatment is so much about loss and sadness, about losing embryos. In our case, the loss of our embryo at 14 weeks, and there’s a lot of tragedy. I think the reason we listened to it was because it articulated the emotions. It was trying to make sense of our sadness.
Alison: Yes. I think also feeling that someone else has felt that sadness before, that often we feel very alone at those times when we have enormous grief. I remember back to a miscarriage of my own way back when, where people’s just like, “Oh, well, don’t worry, you can just do it again,” sort of thing. It’s like, well, it’s not that easy, and especially in the context of fertility treatment, you can’t just do it again so easily. Being able to acknowledge that grief, being able to not wallow, but really express it deeply.
Sometimes, people around, people in society, generally, don’t cope too well with deep feelings, especially with depression and with grief and with anger and frustration over all these things that are also part of the journey with fertility treatment. That music, clearly, especially in the really beseeching, anguished sound that happens within that piece of music, it is a way of acknowledging the feelings. I encourage people, whether you did too, I don’t know, but to sing along with it. Just sing along and let it. If not the words, then just the sounds.
Ben: The remember me thing, it’s the idea of remembering your own losses during fertility treatment. We remember Elsie, the child we lost all the time. Maybe people listening to this will be remembering their other losses. It’s something about the directness of that piece, which, by the way, was performed by a group called the Armonico Consort, and the soprano was called Rachel Lloyd. I thought she sang it beautifully, didn’t she?
Becky: Very much so. It strikes me that Purcell was very brave to actually create a piece like that.
Alison: It’s something that speaks to our deep humanity and our sense of loss.
Becky: When should a fertility patient consider seeing a music therapist?
Alison: I think music therapists are probably helpful at all stages of the journey. Sometimes we can be overcome by grief. We can be overcome by emotions. Music therapists are very good at helping people work with emotions. In the third phase of the studies that I’ve been doing with people with fertility treatment, I’ve done individual specialist guided imagery and music sessions, the Bonnie method.
Helen Bonnie devised this method, originally from America, that uses music, listens to music, but talks about experiences at the same time as listening in a deeply relaxed state, a little bit like a waking dream. It’s a very different way that we don’t usually experience in everyday life, but talking out your deep experiences and images that you’re imagining during the music. I’ve used that method in phase three, and I’ve found that’s really helpful for the people that I’ve been working with.
Ben: Whether they turn to their own track lists or are guided by a music therapist, fertility patients shouldn’t worry too much about what’s right or wrong in their tracks, should they?
Alison: No, that’s right. It’s about what’s right or wrong for you, and that will make a difference for you. If you like one type of music or another type of music, there’s no right or wrong. I often say with a bit of a sparkle in my eye, it’s not like take three concertos and call me in the morning. It’s not like a drug. There’s not a one-size-fits-all with music therapy and with uses of music. It’s actually a case of do what’s right for you, but reflect on what’s right for you. What might seem right to you in your head is like, “Oh, I’m upset, I should calm down,” might not actually be to just go straight to calming down music, might not be the right thing.
There’s something we know of in music therapy called the ISO principle, which is matching the music to the mood. If you’re feeling really upset, well, you know just if someone says to you, you’re feeling really upset and angry, and someone says, “No, just calm down,” you just want to punch them in the nose, really. If you’re feeling angry and upset, find some music that’s angry and upset that you can actually start to relate to that music, start to relate to the feelings and let them out.
Likewise, if you’re feeling really calm and quiet and someone says, “Don’t worry, back up, come on, let’s get on with things,” that’s not really going to help you[unintelligible 00:24:35]. Start with music that’s closer to how you feel. You can still choose some music after that then might change the feelings and change the activity level in the music.
Becky: Taking the time to choose music and listening to it at key moments, it’s a form of self-care, isn’t it?
Alison: It is a form of self-care, yes. That can go beyond just yourself, but also going to a music therapist to get some help with that, because they’ll be very skilled in knowing how to do that.
Ben: We listened to a lot of Debussy piano music, finally afterwards.
Becky: You did. I was listening to Van Morrison, Al Green, or R.E.M. I come from a very different music background.
Ben: I wish we could use those tracks on the podcast.
Becky: We’re not allowed to.
Ben: Copyright reasons. Exactly.
Alison: I’m glad you each found different ways that were right for you.
Becky: Definitely. Let’s have a bit of Debussy for then.
Ben: This is classic Debussy piano music, putting you in a lovely frame of mind.
[music]
Ben: That was that classic Debussy piano piece, The Girl with the Flaxen Hair. It was performed by Anna Tsybuleva. Alison, I wanted to turn to IVF clinics and how proactive they are in terms of music therapy. Are IVF clinics receptive to providing music themselves? It would be really nice, wouldn’t it, to have music during embryo transfer, for example?
Alison: Yes. The specific practitioners I’ve been working with are very interested. Some of the places, one of the clinics in Australia, is offering music to people on a routine basis, and some of the colleagues there, based on our research. I would like to do much more, actually. I’ve been talking with various fertility clinics about this.
Becky: Do you think there’s a case for having too much music in one’s life? How do we ensure it’s a help, not a hindrance?
Alison: Some music can become noise. I’ve done quite a bit of research around noise and music. Things that we don’t like in music or that we don’t find helpful, we generally classify as noise. One type of music compared to another type. We can have too much noise in our lives. I think it can overcomplicate us. It can be overwhelming, especially for people that might be neurodivergent. There might be too much sound and noise, too. Personally, I like quiet a lot. I’ve been enjoying travelling through the UK and having quite a lot of quiet and beautiful scenery.
Ben: I wanted to ask a question, Alison. You’ve forged this amazing career in this area. If you weren’t a music therapy expert, what would you be?
Alison: Oh, that’s interesting. You do have some interesting questions. I can’t imagine being anything other than a music therapist, except I’ve also become more interested in the spiritual side of things. I’m actually doing more training and writing around spirituality broadly and also more specifically in some areas. I can’t imagine not being a music therapist. I think it’s absorbed my whole life. It was not what I expected to do. I just happened into music therapy, into the first course in Australia.
Ben: I like the fact that you’re going to segue from music to spirituality. There is a link there, isn’t there, anyway?
Alison: Absolutely, a link, yes. I think what people haven’t explored enough is the links between spirituality and psychology and therapy, that sometimes therapy has been pushed aside as like, “Oh, that’s not very godly.” When, in fact, all of our humanity is what God has given us. The things that we’ve learned are not negative. The things we’ve learned about the way people respond in life and the things that inform us from psychology and from therapy can actually be well integrated.
Even the sadness that people might feel, and we think that it’s not long ago been Easter time and the death-rebirth metaphor, especially if you think of it from a Jungian point of view, is that we’re constantly letting go of things, letting go of things that either hurt or harm us or that we’re not happy about and opening ourselves to new opportunities and more things. That’s a really hard thing with fertility treatment, to stay open to the potential, the hope, the positive, the future.
Becky: To be open to the concept of joy in IVF is a big one. A successful life birth after all that time, that anxiety, that trauma, and the expense. So much music today is about joy and elation. What does that say about us as humans?
Alison: That we need joy. We need joy in our lives. It’s very easy to feel the negativity and hear the negativity from other people, but we need to actually grasp the possibility of joy and peace and beauty in our lives. We all need that too.
[music]
For unto us a child is born
Unto us
A son is given
Unto us
A son is given
For unto us a child is born
For unto us a child is born
Unto us
A son is given
Unto us
A son is given
For unto us a child is born
For unto us a child is born
Unto us
A son is given
Unto us
A son is given
Unto us
Unto us
The son is given
The son is given
And the government shall be upon his shoulder
And the government shall be upon his shoulder
And the government shall be upon his shoulder
And his name shall be called
Wonderful
Counsellor
The Mighty God
The Everlasting Father
The Prince of Peace
For unto us a child is born
Ben: So that was from Handel’s Messiah, arranged by Mozart actually, and it was conducted by Charles Mackerras with the Huddersfield Choral Society and the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. Alison, it’s been brilliant to have you on the show. Thank you so much for your fascinating insights into this important topic.
Alison: Thank you for inviting me. I’m really appreciative of this opportunity, and I wish all of you listeners well with their treatment. Thank you so much.
[music]
Becky: Thanks for tuning in to Becky & Ben’s Fertility Spotlight.
Ben: Our Instagram page has the latest tips and updates, or head over to our website, fertility-spotlight.com.
Becky: In the next episode, we discuss the breast with the surgeon, author, and TV presenter, Dr. Gabriel Weston.
Ben: For tailored medical advice, speak to a healthcare professional.
Becky: Until next time, don’t despair, we’ll get there.
[music]
[00:33:51] [END OF AUDIO]
Can Music Support Fertility Patients?
Our guest blogger this week is the renowned music-therapy expert Dr. Alison Short, from Western Sydney University, Australia. She talks about the power of music and the way it can support fertility patients during stressful treatment.
You might think that music has very little to do with your health. Or you might not think about music at all. But current research shows us that music has a significant effect on our environment and our feelings, which contribute to our overall health and wellbeing.
Fertility treatment generates deep feelings, and music may help with emotions here, specifically. There’s a lot more music in our lives than we often realise, and music influences how we feel and act. Imagine a movie without music, or dancing without any rhythmic cues.
Music is pervasive across our society within many functions and events: street parades, football matches, shopping centres, schools and seasonal celebrations – to name just a few. Music spurs us to action, enables learning environments and supports community engagement.
The traces that music leaves in our mind and body, affecting our emotions, are becoming increasingly well researched, with mechanisms of influence including rhythmic entertainment, visual imagery, expectancy and memory. The way that music and noise interact together is also increasingly understood as having effects on our mental health and wellbeing.
So what about fertility treatment? Why, and when, might you consider using music on your treatment journey? Music reaches across all our lives, within social, emotional, psychological, physical and spiritual dimensions, forming a holistic and integrating modality.
Innovative fertility specialist Dr. Natasha Andreadis was so convinced of the non-pharmacological power of music to help her patients that she approached me, as an internationally accredited professional music therapist, for advice and assistance in how to use music for treatment benefits, especially in reducing stress.
Together, we designed a series of projects to further understand the impact of music and music therapy on experiences during fertility treatment, gathering feedback and research evidence from the real-world treatment environment.
Few would find it surprising that women have very high anxiety prior to fertility treatment – even higher than doctors had initially thought. However, the astonishing finding was the very large drop in anxiety levels that listening to suitable music could have. It reduced procedural anxiety in around 25% of the women participating in our music and fertility study.
Three comments from patients who took part in that study stand out:
“Music is an important distraction, and it takes you places.”
“[The music] helps slow the brain and stop overthinking.”
“[The music] was distracting calming and pleasant.”
Within our study, we used the acclaimed Music Star device – developed by Danish music therapy researchers Dr. Helle Lund, Dr. Lars Rye Bertelson and Professor Lars Ole Bonde – to address relaxation needs within the hospital context.
Our results, which showed the reduction in anxiety, were too good to keep to ourselves. We saw strong interest when we presented the findings to specialists at the Fertility Society of Australia and New Zealand Conference, and researchers at the International Association for Music and Medicine in Berlin, Germany.
As a result of the study, women are now typically offered music during their treatment at a leading fertility clinic in Syndey, Australia. Perhaps more will follow.
There’s more. Music is not only helpful for reducing anxiety with receptive listening, It also forms part of a therapeutic approach that can help our whole selves address, and let out, blocked feelings and experiences that may be triggered within the challenges of fertility treatment. These include grief, anger and despair.
Our further projects with Dr. Andreadis have included an educational focus within music therapy sessions to demonstrate and individualise uses of music for each person. As one participant said:
“The music therapy sessions give you tools to use for reducing your anxiety and stress. Even if some of the tools are ones that you already know, it reminds you and helps to bring them to forefront of your mind. You also get to meet and talk to others going through similar things.”
More in-depth individualised music psychotherapy, in the form of the Bonny Method of Guided Imagery and Music (GIM), has also been offered to women within our linked projects, to assist with broader and deeper issues triggered within the fertility treatment process.
If you’re looking for a professionally accredited music therapist, well-trained music therapists are available across the globe. I recommend the British Association for Music Therapy, the Australian Music Therapy Association, and the World Federation of Music Therapy.
Many people can use music for personal benefit across environmental, assistive, community, voluntary and therapeutic contexts. The Music, Health and Wellbeing Continuum, which I have pioneered and co-authored with Dr. Jenni MacRitchie, from the University of Sheffield, provides an excellent framework for understanding the role of personal and professional music applications. This includes the important role of the professionally trained and accredited music therapist.
Currently, little research exists linking music, music therapy and fertility treatment. We will be focusing more on this in the future. Interest is growing in relation to psychosocial needs within fertility treatment. But music clearly has a benefit and a role to play. So: dance, sing, play, listen and chase those fertility blues away! Music is here for you.
To hear Alison’s full interview, listen to our podcast episode on music and fertility below.
[music]
Becky: This is Becky & Ben’s Fertility Spotlight.
Ben: With the UK’s top IVF podcast, helping patients find their feet on this notoriously tricky road.
Becky: Joining us today is Dr. Alison Short, the renowned music therapy educator, researcher, and clinician.
Ben: Remember, always speak to your doctor or clinic for advice specific to you.
Becky: Let’s get talking about the power of music and the ways it can help patients cope with the ups and downs of fertility treatment.
Ben: Alison, thank you so much for joining us today. When we listen to a piece of music, how does it affect our mind and body?
Alison Short: I think music is something that affects all of us, actually. It affects because we’re hearing sound. The vibration can affect our body. We interpret the sound in different ways. It affects our emotions and our thoughts about other music that we’ve heard, other circumstances where we’ve heard the music. It affects our associations with life. It affects how we feel in the world with our cultural associations. We might have come from a different language group or within our family culture. Our negative might have played the violin, and so we hear music from a violin, and it affects us.
We also know from music psychology that the whole brain lights up. We used to think that music was only on the right side of the brain, but now we know that music affects the entire brain. We dance with music. We feel like singing with music. Sometimes, the vibration in our body, we hear music, we want to respond in some way. There’s many different effects. There’s a lot of people who’ve been working on that in music psychology and in music therapy, which is my field.
Becky: What I’m going to focus on is that you looked closely at how music can help fertility patients. Can you tell us a bit more about that, please?
Alison: Yes. Firstly, I had a fertility practitioner, a doctor, approach me and say, “I’ve been trying to use music with my people.” She said, “I don’t know what music to use. I don’t know how best to use it, whether I’m doing the right thing.” Over a period of time, we developed several different projects to look at that. Firstly, we looked at how music could be used, just simply listening before procedures. We were looking very much at reducing anxiety. We know, and your listeners would know, how invasive and complicated fertility treatment could be and how much anxiety that fosters in so many different ways and many other emotions too, grief, and all other things as well.
We were looking particularly at anxiety. We developed a project in three phases. The first phase was simply listening to music before procedures. Music Star from Denmark was developed by music therapists, and it has a whole selection of different types of music. Within triangles of a star, in different colors, you can choose music that’s somewhat similar. People listen to the music. Because it was a research study, we took some data about whether it reduced anxiety.
The thing that was really surprising, even to the doctors, was the very high levels of anxiety. Now, that would not surprise your listeners. The doctors knew that people were anxious, but the extremely high levels of anxiety was more than the doctors expected. However, listening to music, even for 10 to 15 minutes before their procedure, made such a difference.
Ben: Are we saying that music can be holistic, a bit like acupuncture or Reiki, a positive psychology tool?
Alison: Certainly music can be holistic, yes. We can choose which parts of music we can use for particular reasons. Music can add a lot to our positive feelings and positive psychology. It can address emotional, physical, spiritual, social, all aspects of ourselves. In that sense, it’s holistic, but we may choose to use one aspect or another of the music for ourselves in particular circumstances. Within the studies that I’ve done, we’ve been looking particularly at the emotional and psychological side of things. There is no doubt that the physical side can help too. We tend to have a calming, rest and digest type of reaction to other things.
Now, you could say, well, that’s just in the mind, but of course, it’s in the body as well. If we need to move and get rid of some of the emotions that are built up inside us, we can use music to actually dance, jump, play musical instruments, get some of the feelings out through banging loudly on a piano or a guitar or dancing. Chaotically, to let some of the feelings out. We could also use music to calm ourselves. I think that’s where a lot of my work and my interest has been.
Becky: When’s the best time during IVF treatment to turn to music for help?
Alison: I think any time that suits you, really. I think everyone has their own journey, and it’s all a little different. Everyone has their own relationship to music. Some people might not have even thought of using music for themselves, but it’s something they could consider as a tool. Other people may be very used to using music. I’ve had someone who said, “Oh, I’d forgotten that I used to play the guitar. I think I might play the guitar a bit more.” It’ll help let some of those feelings out. I’ve had other people who said, “Oh, I never thought about using music to relax.” I think the best time is when you’ve thought about how to do it for yourself.
Empowering women, which is the second stage of my projects, was about helping women realize what music they could use for themselves and different ways that music could help them. Either a powerful song that could lead to discussion, to talk some of the feelings out, and talk some of the issues out, or some relaxation music just to learn how to relax, to go bit by bit through the body and relax little bits and pieces, and take time for yourself with the right music.
Someone suggested Cry Me a River as a song they would really like to use to express some of their feelings. Others that we’ve used is Frozen, the song from Frozen, Let It Go. We’ve used drumming and all different things. You could do that by yourself or with another, some active piece of music that you enjoy. Just physically express some of those feelings to get it out.
Ben: We spent a lot of time, didn’t we, Becky, during our treatment listening to music? I wanted to listen to a track that we listened to a lot during the five-year struggle that we had. It was church music, wasn’t it?
Becky: Ben is far more classically trained than I am in terms of music. He introduced me to John Taverner. I was blown away by this early music. Would you call it early music?
Ben: Definitely early music, 16th-century English church music. It was very transformative. It took us out of ourselves in a big way, which I know music can do. Let’s listen to this little bit of John Taverner.
[music]
Ben: Just amazing music, isn’t it? It just transports you to some celestial place. You need that during fertility treatment. You need to get out of yourself because life is a bit grim. Finding a bit of beauty in sound, we’ve often said on this podcast, you find beauty in music. Sometimes you need to close your eyes and just listen. That was a piece by John Taverner. It was performed by the choir of Queen’s College, Oxford, under Owen Rees.
Alison: Just commenting on that music that you’ve just heard, I think what’s very interesting and your listeners could take from that too, whether it’s exactly that music or whether it’s others, it was a very harmonious-sounding piece of music. It had a very gentle melodic change, very consonant harmonies, very slow rate of change of rhythm, and so forth. From a musical point of view, from the musical elements, that was a wonderful choice that you made there because it would help with the relaxing side of things, too.
We know from experience that relaxing music, a nice over-the-top type of melody, a clear foundation bass that doesn’t change too fast, harmonies that are fairly consonant or don’t change too often, and not too loud. Also, although there were words, I imagine it was probably Latin or something, it wasn’t really intelligible words. Often, using words takes us out of relaxation, makes us think about other things.
Something that’s either vague words or instrumental will help us with relaxing generally too. That certainly had beyond that, that’s just the elements, that’s just picking it apart. As a whole, that piece of music certainly did have a spiritual and uplifting quality to it, didn’t it? Something beyond yourselves, as you say.
Becky: Definitely. As you say, it took us beyond ourselves, which when you’re going through fertility treatment, at times it really helps to see beyond and to be uplifted.
Ben: To escape it almost.
Becky: Like an escape in order to remember that life is enormous and bigger than oneself and celestial, as you mentioned there.
Alison: Yes. I’m sure that some people would have spiritual backgrounds of one sort or another, many different types of spiritual backgrounds, but some people would use that to help them get through. Others may be actually shaking their fist at God in whichever way God is for them. There’s many reactions to all of that, too. Finding meaning despite the challenges of the journey is really important.
Ben: It seems amazing to me that the power of music, the way you actually absorb it, hasn’t been taken on by the medical profession more actively. Will that change in the future, do you think?
Alison: We keep trying. Music therapy as a profession has been around for quite some time, but still relatively new compared to other professions. There’s many aspects to ways that you could use music. Some people are quite dismissive about, oh, it’s just music, it’s just icing on the cake. People like myself, I do quite a lot of research around uses of music, general uses, but also fully music therapy uses, too. There’s many different ways you can use music to try and demonstrate the value of it. One of the things that I’ve developed is a better understanding with my colleague Jenny MacRitchie from Sheffield.
We’ve developed a better understanding of the different roles of people using music for health and well-being. If you think about music, you may just hear music in your environment. It may be in the supermarket at the end of the day, and you notice that there’s suddenly, you notice there’s some music. It might be that you deliberately put on music for yourself when you get home, and you’re tired, and you put on either some busy music to prep you up or some quiet music to match how you feel. You could use music for someone else that you’re caring for. You could attend a drumming group, a choir, or something like that.
I attend a choir myself. A very big area is other professionals using music. It could be physios, doctors, nurses, whoever using music. Music therapists are actually trained to use music in many different ways to look at the needs of the client, to look at the needs of the person, the consumer, and devise what type of music would be best. As we spoke about earlier, there’s many aspects of the person, physical, psychological, social, emotional, spiritual. The music therapist will help determine how we could use music to help someone.
Becky: If you were with a fertility patient before a procedure, what type of music should they listen to?
Alison: Each person will have different music that they particularly like. If I was with a person beforehand, I would be helping them figure out what music is best for them. I certainly have some generic ideas, but it’s not the same for everyone. Personally, I like classical music of many different types. That’s where I’ve come from. Not everyone has to like classical music, but there’s some classical music that you wouldn’t even think is classical music of some of the newer varieties of music that are quite relaxing too. I’d be looking for something that would help them in some way. I’d be talking with them first to find out what music they really like because something that you don’t like is not going to relax you, is it?
Ben: Speaking of relaxation, music can relax the nervous system. I think we know about that. Does it also make patients feel a bit less vulnerable and more in control of things?
Alison: Certainly, in my Stage 2 projects, I’ve done what I can to help educate people in how they could have some more control over the circumstances. Yes, indeed. I think using music is something that can make a big difference. I think back to even, well, I haven’t been through fertility treatment myself, but during childbirth, I used music right through. I had my kids in America way before people were doing much with music there, but I used music right through childbirth. They were like, “What’s that over there?” I suppose we’ll let you keep it on. It was an old boombox in the old days.
Becky: You mentioned that music empowers people. I imagine that in that context.
Alison: It was actually empowering. It was something I could do to help myself. Likewise, the people who are listening to this podcast can find music for them that they have something that you have control over because there’s so much you don’t have control over in a treatment context like this. So much where people say, “Do this now, do that then,” and just say, “Hey, just a minute, I want to take my headphones with me. I want to take my music with me.” All those types of things are really– it’s something that people can say, “No, this is me.” It’s personalizing, it’s humanizing.
Becky: Just moving away from empowerment, I’m going to introduce a bit of Henry Purcell, which is a very sad piece. It’s called When I Am Laid in Earth.
Alison: Oh, I know this piece very well.
Becky: Yes. We felt during our treatment, very sad at one point, and we listened to it a great deal. I want to play it now and see what you think about it.
[music]
When I am laid, am laid in earth,
May my wrongs create
No trouble, no trouble in thy breast;
Remember me, remember me,
But ah! forget my fate.
Remember me, but ah! forget my fate.
Remember me, remember me,
But ah! forget my fate.
Remember me, but ah! forget my fate.
Ben: Yes, those are the words, remember me. Fertility treatment is so much about loss and sadness, about losing embryos. In our case, the loss of our embryo at 14 weeks, and there’s a lot of tragedy. I think the reason we listened to it was because it articulated the emotions. It was trying to make sense of our sadness.
Alison: Yes. I think also feeling that someone else has felt that sadness before, that often we feel very alone at those times when we have enormous grief. I remember back to a miscarriage of my own way back when, where people’s just like, “Oh, well, don’t worry, you can just do it again,” sort of thing. It’s like, well, it’s not that easy, and especially in the context of fertility treatment, you can’t just do it again so easily. Being able to acknowledge that grief, being able to not wallow, but really express it deeply.
Sometimes, people around, people in society, generally, don’t cope too well with deep feelings, especially with depression and with grief and with anger and frustration over all these things that are also part of the journey with fertility treatment. That music, clearly, especially in the really beseeching, anguished sound that happens within that piece of music, it is a way of acknowledging the feelings. I encourage people, whether you did too, I don’t know, but to sing along with it. Just sing along and let it. If not the words, then just the sounds.
Ben: The remember me thing, it’s the idea of remembering your own losses during fertility treatment. We remember Elsie, the child we lost all the time. Maybe people listening to this will be remembering their other losses. It’s something about the directness of that piece, which, by the way, was performed by a group called the Armonico Consort, and the soprano was called Rachel Lloyd. I thought she sang it beautifully, didn’t she?
Becky: Very much so. It strikes me that Purcell was very brave to actually create a piece like that.
Alison: It’s something that speaks to our deep humanity and our sense of loss.
Becky: When should a fertility patient consider seeing a music therapist?
Alison: I think music therapists are probably helpful at all stages of the journey. Sometimes we can be overcome by grief. We can be overcome by emotions. Music therapists are very good at helping people work with emotions. In the third phase of the studies that I’ve been doing with people with fertility treatment, I’ve done individual specialist guided imagery and music sessions, the Bonnie method.
Helen Bonnie devised this method, originally from America, that uses music, listens to music, but talks about experiences at the same time as listening in a deeply relaxed state, a little bit like a waking dream. It’s a very different way that we don’t usually experience in everyday life, but talking out your deep experiences and images that you’re imagining during the music. I’ve used that method in phase three, and I’ve found that’s really helpful for the people that I’ve been working with.
Ben: Whether they turn to their own track lists or are guided by a music therapist, fertility patients shouldn’t worry too much about what’s right or wrong in their tracks, should they?
Alison: No, that’s right. It’s about what’s right or wrong for you, and that will make a difference for you. If you like one type of music or another type of music, there’s no right or wrong. I often say with a bit of a sparkle in my eye, it’s not like take three concertos and call me in the morning. It’s not like a drug. There’s not a one-size-fits-all with music therapy and with uses of music. It’s actually a case of do what’s right for you, but reflect on what’s right for you. What might seem right to you in your head is like, “Oh, I’m upset, I should calm down,” might not actually be to just go straight to calming down music, might not be the right thing.
There’s something we know of in music therapy called the ISO principle, which is matching the music to the mood. If you’re feeling really upset, well, you know just if someone says to you, you’re feeling really upset and angry, and someone says, “No, just calm down,” you just want to punch them in the nose, really. If you’re feeling angry and upset, find some music that’s angry and upset that you can actually start to relate to that music, start to relate to the feelings and let them out.
Likewise, if you’re feeling really calm and quiet and someone says, “Don’t worry, back up, come on, let’s get on with things,” that’s not really going to help you[unintelligible 00:24:35]. Start with music that’s closer to how you feel. You can still choose some music after that then might change the feelings and change the activity level in the music.
Becky: Taking the time to choose music and listening to it at key moments, it’s a form of self-care, isn’t it?
Alison: It is a form of self-care, yes. That can go beyond just yourself, but also going to a music therapist to get some help with that, because they’ll be very skilled in knowing how to do that.
Ben: We listened to a lot of Debussy piano music, finally afterwards.
Becky: You did. I was listening to Van Morrison, Al Green, or R.E.M. I come from a very different music background.
Ben: I wish we could use those tracks on the podcast.
Becky: We’re not allowed to.
Ben: Copyright reasons. Exactly.
Alison: I’m glad you each found different ways that were right for you.
Becky: Definitely. Let’s have a bit of Debussy for then.
Ben: This is classic Debussy piano music, putting you in a lovely frame of mind.
[music]
Ben: That was that classic Debussy piano piece, The Girl with the Flaxen Hair. It was performed by Anna Tsybuleva. Alison, I wanted to turn to IVF clinics and how proactive they are in terms of music therapy. Are IVF clinics receptive to providing music themselves? It would be really nice, wouldn’t it, to have music during embryo transfer, for example?
Alison: Yes. The specific practitioners I’ve been working with are very interested. Some of the places, one of the clinics in Australia, is offering music to people on a routine basis, and some of the colleagues there, based on our research. I would like to do much more, actually. I’ve been talking with various fertility clinics about this.
Becky: Do you think there’s a case for having too much music in one’s life? How do we ensure it’s a help, not a hindrance?
Alison: Some music can become noise. I’ve done quite a bit of research around noise and music. Things that we don’t like in music or that we don’t find helpful, we generally classify as noise. One type of music compared to another type. We can have too much noise in our lives. I think it can overcomplicate us. It can be overwhelming, especially for people that might be neurodivergent. There might be too much sound and noise, too. Personally, I like quiet a lot. I’ve been enjoying travelling through the UK and having quite a lot of quiet and beautiful scenery.
Ben: I wanted to ask a question, Alison. You’ve forged this amazing career in this area. If you weren’t a music therapy expert, what would you be?
Alison: Oh, that’s interesting. You do have some interesting questions. I can’t imagine being anything other than a music therapist, except I’ve also become more interested in the spiritual side of things. I’m actually doing more training and writing around spirituality broadly and also more specifically in some areas. I can’t imagine not being a music therapist. I think it’s absorbed my whole life. It was not what I expected to do. I just happened into music therapy, into the first course in Australia.
Ben: I like the fact that you’re going to segue from music to spirituality. There is a link there, isn’t there, anyway?
Alison: Absolutely, a link, yes. I think what people haven’t explored enough is the links between spirituality and psychology and therapy, that sometimes therapy has been pushed aside as like, “Oh, that’s not very godly.” When, in fact, all of our humanity is what God has given us. The things that we’ve learned are not negative. The things we’ve learned about the way people respond in life and the things that inform us from psychology and from therapy can actually be well integrated.
Even the sadness that people might feel, and we think that it’s not long ago been Easter time and the death-rebirth metaphor, especially if you think of it from a Jungian point of view, is that we’re constantly letting go of things, letting go of things that either hurt or harm us or that we’re not happy about and opening ourselves to new opportunities and more things. That’s a really hard thing with fertility treatment, to stay open to the potential, the hope, the positive, the future.
Becky: To be open to the concept of joy in IVF is a big one. A successful life birth after all that time, that anxiety, that trauma, and the expense. So much music today is about joy and elation. What does that say about us as humans?
Alison: That we need joy. We need joy in our lives. It’s very easy to feel the negativity and hear the negativity from other people, but we need to actually grasp the possibility of joy and peace and beauty in our lives. We all need that too.
[music]
For unto us a child is born
Unto us
A son is given
Unto us
A son is given
For unto us a child is born
For unto us a child is born
Unto us
A son is given
Unto us
A son is given
For unto us a child is born
For unto us a child is born
Unto us
A son is given
Unto us
A son is given
Unto us
Unto us
The son is given
The son is given
And the government shall be upon his shoulder
And the government shall be upon his shoulder
And the government shall be upon his shoulder
And his name shall be called
Wonderful
Counsellor
The Mighty God
The Everlasting Father
The Prince of Peace
For unto us a child is born
Ben: So that was from Handel’s Messiah, arranged by Mozart actually, and it was conducted by Charles Mackerras with the Huddersfield Choral Society and the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. Alison, it’s been brilliant to have you on the show. Thank you so much for your fascinating insights into this important topic.
Alison: Thank you for inviting me. I’m really appreciative of this opportunity, and I wish all of you listeners well with their treatment. Thank you so much.
[music]
Becky: Thanks for tuning in to Becky & Ben’s Fertility Spotlight.
Ben: Our Instagram page has the latest tips and updates, or head over to our website, fertility-spotlight.com.
Becky: In the next episode, we discuss the breast with the surgeon, author, and TV presenter, Dr. Gabriel Weston.
Ben: For tailored medical advice, speak to a healthcare professional.
Becky: Until next time, don’t despair, we’ll get there.
[music]
[00:33:51] [END OF AUDIO]
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