Becky Saer: Hello, and welcome back to Becky and Ben’s Fertility Spotlight. I’m Becky.
Ben Saer: I’m Ben.
Becky: We’re former fertility patients, and we arrange IVF treatments for others who need a helping hand.
Ben: We’re taking an honest and compassionate look at fertility issues that affect us all.
Becky: Today, we’re speaking to two IVF dads. The male perspective is often overlooked. We’ll be hearing their take on the whole process.
Ben: Just a reminder, our podcast is general information only. For a personalized diagnosis, always speak to a healthcare professional.
Becky: Let’s get started.
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Becky: I’d like to talk today about the male perspective on fertility. We’ve called this episode “IVF Dads”, which I have to say I’m very excited about. I know that sounds a bit bizarre, but being married to an IVF dad, obviously, Ben–
Ben: That’s me.
Becky: That’s him. I have been through it with Ben. I think it’s very interesting to talk about the male perspective. Obviously, in the fertility world, it’s very much focused on the woman. Obviously, as a woman, having been through it myself, you go through the physical rigor of fertility treatment. You go through the emotional rigor, but there, in the background, possibly, or side by side, in a more equal world, you have your partner, your male partner.
Today, we’re specifically talking about heterosexual couples. We’re going to be doing episodes on female couples and male couples. Today, we’re focusing on heterosexual couples. Very kindly, we have two IVF dads with us in the studio today, John and Tim. We’re hugely grateful to them for coming along to talk to us about their experiences as IVF dads. Ben, would you have any comments, really, on being an IVF dad yourself?
Ben: The thing that I remember from our journey was, yes, a lot of the emphasis was on you, and rightly so, because you carry the baby. It’s a very complicated process, pregnancy and monitoring pregnancy, assessing your eggs, of course, and just getting you ready. There’s so much more that you do, of course, than me, or did rather than me. I do look back at it, and I do remember that there were two main issues. There was the medical side of things, and there was the emotional side of things. In this podcast, we’re focusing on the emotional journey of patients.
On the medical side, for me, there weren’t too many issues. In some senses, the pressure was slightly off me. On the emotional side, I do remember it was tough. It was tough seeing you go through everything that you went through, the four IUIs, the IVF cycles, the donor egg cycle that resulted in the loss of Elsie. All of this was tough. I remember internalizing it a lot. Of course, we talked about it, but I didn’t use resources. I didn’t seek much help myself. I know we had counseling together when things went wrong. Even now, where there are more resources for men, then there were not.
Becky: This was 11 years ago. It was quite a long time ago. There were no apps. There was no focus in the media, and there still isn’t, I don’t think, on the male perspective on fertility. I think that’s why it’s such an interesting area. I remember you were the strong, silent type. Such a cliche. One thing I do remember you did, which was really helpful, was that you completely organized the IVF treatment.
Ben: I did do that.
Becky: You did all the research.
Ben: I enjoyed doing that. No, I genuinely enjoyed it because I did–
Becky: It was problem-solving.
Ben: Also, I wanted to take the pressure off you during it. Some of the patients that we’ve helped over the years, we’re often approached by the male partner, too. That’s for personal, sometimes for cultural reasons more than anything, that they will organize the process and look after their wife. I was feeling a bit in that mode. Certainly, time and time again, when things weren’t working, I internalized it. We didn’t speak much about it when the things didn’t work. I remember looking at myself in the mirror after we lost Elsie and just seeing this sad man looking back at me.
Becky: Oh dear.
Ben: We had counseling. I remember the counselor that we saw was actually rather worried about me more than you. How dare she?
Becky: That’s because I’m such a strong female.
Ben: How dare she? I actually was referred to another counselor by the counselor. I’m glad I was, because it did help. She got me to do things like more regular exercise and just taking care of myself a bit better. These days, we are seeing glimmers of light in terms of extra resources and support for men going through the fertility process.
Becky: Also, I think it’s something that I’m interested to see if John and Tim might talk about. That is, do you think that in 2025, young men are encouraged in education and generally culturally to be a bit more open about their feelings? That does lead us on to introducing John. Thank you so much for being with us.
John: Thanks for having me.
Becky: To start with, John, can you just give us a short summary of your fertility journey?
John: Maybe a common but not so traditional route in the sense that I was diagnosed with testicular cancer. Basically, the chemotherapy that I was going to have after my surgical procedure was guaranteed to sterilize me. My consultant, who was absolutely spectacular, essentially pre-planned me to go and do storage at the UCL, the University College London, ahead of the chemotherapy.
The issue was, because I was very ill, my cancer had progressed quite aggressively. I was a Stage III position, so really quite ill. The fertility was compromised. The cancer was compromising my fertility, but also there was a guarantee that I would have no fertility after my treatment. The consultant did the referral, and then I had a very short window to come up. I came up to London. I had two weeks before I had to start my chemo. Without a shadow of a doubt, that was deadline day. I had to get going.
Becky: Did that feel like a lot of pressure?
John: Yes, it was weird because it was pressure, but it wasn’t so much pressure of the going to do the storage. It was pressure each time they would ring to say the result. The nurse would ring and say, “Oh, this sample today was sadly not usable.”
Becky: Oh, gosh. That must have been really hard.
John: Yes, it was quite tough, that bit. As a bloke, you generally don’t worry too much about yourself, which is partly the issue that you back end all of your emotions instead of getting them out at the start.
Ben: Well, I mean, but you had a lot on your plate there.
John: Yes, exactly. I was about to say.
Ben: To have that serious medical situation to attend to.
John: That was the thing. You’re going to do the storage, but it felt very on rails, just a complete pandemonium, almost, emotionally, because personally, I wasn’t another two and a half, three years down the line when the IVF stuff started. I was just in that moment where I’m like, “Just get me well, please.” Your priority then is your own health. At the back of your mind, you’re thinking, “Great, we’ve got an insurance policy, hopefully going on.”
The problem, of course, with that was it doesn’t even occur to you that the illness itself might be meaning that the storage is going to take you into the realm of what you would have been down anyway if you hadn’t had the cancer, because you’re getting your own fertility in that scenario is being compromised by the illness. You’re, by proxy, becoming a purely fertility-based route into the system.
Ben: The perception, as well, of male partners and fertility is that things generally don’t go wrong that much with the male partner, which is, of course, not the opposite, but certainly the extreme opposite for you. We know the facts are that in any fertility cycle, regardless of the cancer, it’s 30% likely to be a female issue, 30% the male, including your serious condition, and 40% a mix of the two. I wanted to bring Tim in on this as well because, Tim, as I understand it, you did not have as serious a medical challenge as John. Could you tell us a bit more about your route?
Tim: Yes. Ours was probably a more standard routine. We were a newlywed couple, started trying to have children, and over time, it dawns on you that not much is happening. Then, yes, obviously, went to the doctor, and you then go through the waiting period whilst they assess that you are legitimately a candidate for IVF. Then we did a couple of cycles of IUI, which were pointless. In my opinion, it felt like it kind of–
Becky: In an earlier episode, we talk about actually how pointless IUI is.
Tim: Yes. It felt like a holding pattern, really. We weren’t really doing anything. The only thing I can say is, psychologically, it does prepare you a little bit for the IVF because you’re doing some of the same processes and getting used to going into that medical environment. I think as a dad, well, as a wannabe dad at the time, all your friends are just getting married, having kids effortlessly, carrying on their partying lifestyle for the nine months leading up to the birth, whereas you’re having to harbor this secret. I think, in hindsight, we should have been more open about it.
John: Definitely.
Tim: It doesn’t come at you in the way– In hindsight, it’s wonderful, but at the time, you creep into it, don’t you?
Ben: You creep into it.
John: It’s not an every cloud has a silver lining statement necessarily, but because with certainty, you know you’re going down that path. We didn’t have that, shall we call pressure, or stigmatism, or whatever else. It’s funny, I was talking about it with a mate the other day, and it was like that whole thing as well of sometimes you hear stories of guys feeling emasculated and less of a man, and all that sort of thing. That didn’t happen to me even after I was literally surgically altered, shall we say. I didn’t get that then, and I didn’t have the option to think it either about my infertility because I knew for certain that it was taken away from me.
That is almost a weird benefit because you don’t go down that paranoid, silly thinking. It’s all nonsense, obviously. It’s all perspective, but I didn’t get the chance to go down the road of, shall we tell our family or not, and how do we feel about that, because it was all part and parcel of the situation we found ourselves in. That clearly can’t happen to each guy, but what I’m saying is, to reflect on your point, Tim, there, the sooner you can get your head out of that mindset, the better as a bloke, I think. Otherwise, you’re too wrapped up in that neurosis when really I went into carer mode for my wife quite early because I wasn’t stuck in the worry phase.
Then, when she was feeling a bit more like, “Oh, well,” getting wrapped up in the worry, I could then become the person to say, “Look, let’s just be open and neutral and objective as early as we can,” because that can only help the chances of–
Becky: Did you become more open with family and friends and colleagues and so on, or were you just–
John: Yes. This is the thing. The minute you do say something, people support you, don’t they? Hopefully.
Becky: Absolutely. You do know who your friends are, don’t you?
Tim: Yes. I think everybody we ever spoke to was very supportive about it. I think it is just at the time, the whole baby-making process is very personal. Also, for most people, it’s a private, magical thing.
Ben: You’re outsourcing that private, that privacy to a bunch of people in white coats who are doing their best for you. It’s the least romantic.
Becky: At least sexy, I have to say. It’s extremely unsexy, extremely unromantic.
John: In for a penny, in for a pound. It’s like, what’s the point in turning it into a big secret? Don’t get me wrong, if someone wants to call it privacy, go for it.
Becky: Of course, yes, you expect that.
John: If you’re feeling compelled to be private for embarrassment or worry, not a good idea, push back against it. Actively push against it.
Becky: This would be your advice to potential IVF dads out there?
Tim: Yes. I think it’s realizing when you need the help. I think as a bloke, you tend to want to be able to solve everything without getting any outside help. I think asking for that help early and just, yes, at the time, it was an additional pressure with work and friends and social situations where you’re having to pretend to drink because you’re trying to hide this thing away. Everyone else is drinking, and you’re silently having to sneak up to order a tonic water or whatever. I know a lot of women go through that when they’re trying to conceive or when they’re early pregnancy, but actually, blokes don’t normally have that issue to deal with. I think openness would have been a way better route.
Ben: When you both had tests for your fertility, were they extensive enough, did you find? One of the criticisms we often hear is that the female partner is tested for everything under the sun. The male partner is just, “Oh, just going to have a semen analysis.” We know that if it’s 30% a male issue with infertility, we know that it’s not always about the semen analysis. We know there’s something called DNA fragmentation test. We know there’s something called karyotyping, which is when they look at your chromosomes in the male partner and the female partner, just to check they’re okay before you even start.
John: We had those tests.
Becky: Did you? Wow. Yes.
John: We were NHS funded because obviously, we had the referral from the oncologist to trigger the journey. We didn’t have to go–
Becky: Because of your cancer.
John: Right. Our GP literally logs in, checks my notes, and then goes, “Yes, I’m afraid it’s straight to the local consultant.” Then, when we got to see the local consultant, she also was spectacular in the sense that she did do all the genetic screenings and everything else.
Becky: This was all on the NHS?
John: Yes.
Becky: Amazing.
John: We had a full profile done of both of us because obviously, I’ve been referred, but then my wife also needs to be assessed in case there’s a complementary set of issues that the clinic would then need to be aware of as part of our journey as a couple.
Ben: Well, I think clearly they were looking at you very closely. Tim, I’m sure you had the semen analysis and stuff like that, but did you find that you got enough care from the doctors?
Tim: No.
Becky: Were you ignored, do you think?
Tim: Yes. It would largely be the conversation would be between the doctor and Kate, and I would be a peripheral figure, feeling like a supportive [unintelligible 00:15:24]
Becky: A spare part.
Tim: A spare part, yes. I think we had the semen analysis at the beginning, but that was it. Again, we were NHS, so the focus was much more on let’s just make this work rather than trying to find out potentially why it wasn’t working, which, at the end of the day, it works. I can’t really fault it too much, but there’s still a lot of unanswered questions. It’s not that it’s a blame game, but it still bugs me today. Why didn’t it work? Nothing in any of the tests really seemed to show anything wrong with Kate. Obviously, the one test we had for me, nothing seemed to be wrong with that.
Becky: It was unexplained infertility?
Tim: Unexplained, which in itself is irritating because you want to get–
Ben: The phrase is irritating. You want to say, “Well, you’re the doctor, you explain it.”
Becky: Yes, exactly. Surely someone can explain it. Surely a scientist can explain it. That’s where you feel, oh, they should have delved in further.
Tim: Even if they just gave us more explanation and said, “These are potentially the reasons why it might not be working, but it’s too expensive to do this, or you can pay extra to have this test done.” Just have a little bit more light shone into that box, because it felt very unknown.
Ben: I remember sitting with Becky and similar experience. The doctor didn’t even look at me. I had all the questions. I started off asking all these questions, and it was literally, “Yes, I think I’ll speak to your wife. Thanks very much.” Turned to Becky and talked about it. Yes, there’s a lot of new fertility apps out there, for example. There’s an explosion of fertility apps, but most of them are still focused on the woman. In our experience, it’s best to have a few that focus towards the male partner. It’s the same with the emotional side of things. Resources are becoming available for male partners.
Not all of us want to go to these resources, but the point is that they are coming on stream a bit more. That’s got to be basically good. The whole wellness side of thing has exploded. This idea, it almost seems old-fashioned even now, Tim, your story about just sitting in there and having this neutral conversation with a rather robotic doctor. Let us hope that the wellness side of things, where there almost needs to be maybe a fertility coach in these clinics that speaks to both of you and says, “Right, you guys, look after yourself. Stop drinking, stop smoking. Take moderate exercise,” all that kind of stuff. A bit more focus on the well-being of the patient.
Becky: It’s not just that. It’s about giving emotional support. I think we found in our experience with the clinics that we– there are a lot of great clinics in the UK, let me say here and now that there are some brilliant ones. I did find that through my experience, a great lack of emotional support for myself. Can you imagine how little emotional support for Ben? That’s why we set up our company to support emotionally and practically other IVF patients. Just going on to John, did you ever experience IVF failure? It’s a sensitive subject. I just wanted to ask how you, as a man, coped with that.
John: The failure, in the sense of it didn’t go as planned, was the first cycle of harvesting. With the medications, it’s about balancing them to get the optimal amount of egg releases. Essentially, the first course of therapies, it wasn’t quite right.
Becky: It wasn’t working.
John: The protocol resulted in not an optimal amount of eggs produced. We had some, but not enough to move to the next stage of fertilizing the eggs. Essentially, it was all the side effects for my wife, all the emotional buildup of, it’s nearly collection day.
Becky: There just weren’t enough [unintelligible 00:19:16]
John: Then we didn’t quite get there.
Becky: Oh, I’m sorry.
John: The disappointment was going through the whole rigmarole and the discomfort. We still had the hope. We were told at the time–
Becky: Because we were so nearly there.
John: We were so nearly there.
Becky: So nearly there, so frustrating because you were so close.
Tim: We invested so much time.
John: Now we have to reset and go again. To be brutally honest, I was actually quite, “Oh well.” I was fairly flippant about it. Clearly not when my wife is feeling terrible.
Becky: No, of course.
John: In my mind, I thought, “Well, you just need to just keep your chin up and be ready to support her through the next few weeks.”
Becky: Through the next one. Were you already thinking ahead?
John: Don’t feel sorry. Don’t be moping about yourself, because at this point, if it’s “IVF Dads”, my only disappointment is, oh, well, she cannot move to her next stage. Actually, got no right to really feel particularly sad about it, and I’m going to just support her. There was a failure, but again, from the Dad’s point of view, I didn’t feel like there had been “a failure.” It was a setback.
Ben: The way you describe that, John, is interesting, because if you break a leg, so you’re in a relationship and your partner breaks their leg, you’ve got a pretty good chance that the leg is going to be fixed. You do look after your partner, obviously, and cook the meals, but it’s out of the blue to suddenly be in this position where you have to give major care to your partner, as you did when that didn’t work. It’s a big ask, I think, for a lot of people, because a lot of people don’t have the resources or the training, but just the life experience. To suddenly become really very caring.
Tim: I think it’s also you’re heavily invested in the success of this thing. In our case, the first cycle went perfectly well and everything was good, but from later failed cycles, it is that you build up and you feel like everything’s gone badly wrong, and surely now it’s going to work. You’re hoping for this thing. You’ve had so much bad luck, and you think, “Well, this is going to be fine.” You don’t really expect it to fail. When it does, it’s a really big blow, I think.
John: Obviously, clearly, Tim, I’ve not met you. I don’t have any view of your relationship with your wife, but what I would say is probably a general truism is that you’re a tag team. That’s when you really start to fire on all cylinders. Forget IVF and fertility, just as a couple, if you’re a tag team. What I mean by that is one of you is against the ropes, whilst the other person is almost functioning as a support and a cheerleader, but you have to be ready to just jump in and take the blow.
When my wife hit that really horrible moment of completely physically exhausted, absolutely losing the will to live physically and emotionally because of the hormone changes that go with all that, what you do is you tag in, and you start to take some of the heft of her emotions. The point I’m trying to make here, in a very strange lens of IVF, is that would apply to any walk of an emotional challenge in a relationship. We’ve had other issues in the redundancies and job losses and things.
Now, if I’m not the person who’s currently going through the job loss, I’m ready to jump in and take on support, and it will flip at some point. Another ironic twist of having been gravely ill, I was more than ready to do that because she was the one who was there when I was having cycles of chemo and puking up what could only be described as purple slime toys. It was ridiculous. Ready to go in and help.
Becky: It’s very interesting because, as a man, you went through so much before the fertility treatment. As you say, it sounds like your wife was totally there for you, and how moving that then you went into fertility treatment, and you were there for her, as you say. That’s really interesting, and I love that because, in a way, it’s reflecting marriage, as you say, on a broader scale, isn’t it? Obviously, in life, there are the ups and downs, and when something goes wrong in your partner’s life, then you’re there for them, and vice versa.
John: I think there’s two streams to managing the journey as a guy, and that’s if you need counseling, take it. By the way, counseling is just talking, really. It’s just targeted talking. If you’ve got a friend you can talk to openly, do that. Don’t worry.
Becky: I often say friends are the best therapy.
John: Counseling is, in its most extreme form, for people that have no one else to talk to or can’t talk to anyone else. If you’ve got those two opportunities, do that because that will work. Then you do also have, because you know you’re going into a journey of therapies, and hopefully with a good clinic who can block it out for you, it gives you an opportunity as a guy to think, “Right, there are the beats in the journey where I’m going to need to be on it,” because there’s a point there where it could go wrong. I can’t be the one emotionally investing in myself too much until then. Get out what you need to get out along the way, but be ready at that point to, “I’m going to take some of the strain here.”
Again, it’s not about making it about the woman because I know we’ve said there’s that whole nonsense of stats bear it out, common sense bears it out, really. That doesn’t mean to say, and you might find this when you come onto the same sex couples, I hope you do, because couples are couples. It doesn’t really matter what your sexual orientation is. The point being is the tag team means that someone at some point will need the help. Don’t be embarrassed to take it, and don’t be too shy to give it. In the time up to that point when you’re thinking you’re going to tag into the journey, the beauty of this is, if that’s the right word, you can plan it.
Like a normal pregnancy will have ups and downs, the disadvantage of being in a normal route is you can’t plan those things as well. Don’t get me wrong. Once we were pregnant, we were into the wacky world of anything can happen, and you can’t really predict it. That first real hard disappointment meant that I knew, actually, next time we go into that journey, I can plan for it now as well.
Becky: Tim, did you have the same planning mentality? It’s very interesting for me to hear this because it’s, I think, a very strong way of, would you agree?
Tim: A mature way, I would say, of dealing with it.
Becky: A very mature way of approaching a process that is very, very erratic. It’s a very interesting way of doing it. Did you have that perspective, Tim, or did you more go with the flow?
Tim: I think more with flow. Like I said, when we first started with the IVF thing, we’d gone through this gradual realization of infertility. From the moment we started IVF, the first round, everything went textbook and perfectly.
Becky: The first IVF cycle was successful.
Tim: Yes. Egg harvest worked really well, got a decent number of embryos. One was implanted and went on to a successful pregnancy, at which point it’s brilliant. We’re rubbish at normal fertility, but we’re brilliant at IVF. Then obviously, when it came to the second time around, that’s when things started to get wrong and that’s when we experienced failure. I think we were totally unprepared for that. Having had success the first time, you get into a complacent place of, yes, go back.
Becky: That’s often not the case. It’s often that people fail and fail and fail, and then they’re successful. It’s quite interesting that it was that way around for you.
Tim: Yes. I think it’s also, I think, with the financial pressure, because the first round was NHS, and then after that, you’re starting to self-fund. You’re aware there is that pressure, there’s this finite amount of money that you are going to start burning through that does start to become way out of hand.
Ben: The pressure builds a bit, doesn’t it?
Tim: You’re also thinking, how much are we prepared to sacrifice to get this second child? Obviously, you could carry on forever and sell your house and get yourself in a massive amount of debt, but that’s compromising on the child you’ve already got. There is a point where you have to call it off. Luckily, we never got to that point because after, I think another– we had two failed rounds and then a miscarriage, and then we had a successful round.
Even with that number of things, each round, the pressure builds, and the questions build, and the strain on your partner, you can really see. Also, I think subconsciously, you’re just thinking they are putting more and more medicines into their body every time, more and more hormones are disrupting the natural flow of their body more. You have that concern about the impact that might have on them in the longer run.
Becky: Of course, yes.
Ben: I think this idea of– it’s called a market in hope, isn’t it, IVF? We hear this phrase about a market of hope. You’re investing so much in each and every cycle that you do, and when it doesn’t work, it’s an enormous investment that you feel is lost. There’s also this sense when you have an embryo that doesn’t work, the counselors will tell you this, it is a grieving process for each and every embryo.
Becky: Also, can I just say, a miscarriage is a huge, huge thing.
Tim: I think the way that was [unintelligible 00:28:40] was probably the lowest point of our journey.
Becky: Yes, of course. I’m really sorry to hear that.
Tim: You go into the clinic like everyone else, and you have your ultrasound, and then you’re delivered this devastating news, and then you get back into the waiting room where there’s all these pregnant people and hopeful people. I feel like it would be good for a clinic to have another way out. There was no space to go and sit and come to terms with it. There was no back exit to escape walking past all these–
Becky: All these pregnant mothers.
Tim: The last people you want to see when you’ve just had that thing dropped on your lap. Obviously, that happens a lot. We’re not the only people this has happened to, and it feels like that was something that there should be contingencies in place for that.
Becky: It does happen a lot. That’s even more reason for there to be extra care, because it is very common for women to have miscarriages, whether you’ve had IVF or not. It’s a huge loss. It’s a huge, huge loss. I think it takes much longer to get over than people anticipate.
Ben: Being given the news, like Tim just said, we’ve been given bad news. Many patients listening to this podcast will be given bad news, sadly, such as the odds of IVF treatment not working all the time. I think I’m right in saying that in this country, clinics have to provide counseling services at each of their units. It’s not beyond the bounds of possibility, is it, that these clinics could think in advance about people who’ve been given bad news and being ushered, like you say, Tim, into a room straight with the counselor, the counseling team, a member of that counseling team, to sit you down with a cup of tea. Not just a doctor, not just a cold nurse giving you the bad news. It’s got to be possible.
Tim: It’s a grieving process, isn’t it?
Becky: Yes, completely.
Tim: I’ll tell you. I’m Irish Catholic stock. One of the cultural things that we will do, it’s this morbid fascination with death that you get in Irish Catholic family, “Who’s dead? Did you hear he died?” It’s always, “Who’s dead?” Then it happens to your own family, you see. Then you have this bizarre, probably from an external perspective, point of view, it would look weird, but you just sit around and talk about the person constantly, and as quickly as possible after they’ve passed.
Becky: It’s a way of keeping them alive, though, isn’t it?
Tim: Yes. Funnily enough, I was saying to my mum the other day, because my uncle passed this year, and it was a massive blow to the whole family. I was with my auntie and my mum yesterday, and we were just saying this, where the sooner you can deal with something that’s horrible, which, of course, parallels what we’re talking about here, in the long run, the better it is. As hard as it is to start chatting about it, do it.
Now, don’t get me wrong. The plus side of doing that with someone that’s lived a life is you have lots of memories to pepper the negative feelings that you are experiencing, and you can raise a smile and all that. It doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t do it in a scenario where there’s less to be positive about in the overall scheme, because it’s about expressing it. Culturally, like British people, especially of our generation, emotions and sharing, the whole process of handling grief as a British person of our generation is just to ignore it.
Becky: Tim, can I just ask your age, just so that people have an idea of–
Tim: 46. I have to think about it.
Becky: We’re talking about 40s, 50s here. Yes, exactly.
Tim: I think it’s that generational thing. I hope it is better for the young generation, certainly for our kids as they grow up, that the world is more open place and a more place. I think our instinct is to not talk about things. We need pricing apart to talk about things rather than, actually, we should, like you say, confront things quicker and deal with them quicker rather than burying them deep.
Becky: Do you have any one male friend or female friend or family member that is your go-to and that was during your fertility treatment that you felt you could just go and chat to?
Tim: I spoke to a couple of people. Probably, again, didn’t share as much as I said. I think, again, from the male perspective, we’re groomed to be self-dependent and be the rock that supports everyone else, and not reach out for help when we need it. With the benefit of hindsight and obviously now being a bit older, 100% should have spoken to more people and spoken to people earlier.
Becky: The people that you did speak to, were they close friends or were they family?
Tim: Yes, they were friends.
Becky: Two male friends, were they?
Tim: Two male friends, yes. Also, actually, female friends and also to my family. I didn’t really engage with them on the journey. It was like when we were quite a long way into it. I think it would have been better to offload earlier and share that journey and that load with them.
Becky: In terms of talking to your partner, did you find that it was quite, I think easy is the wrong word, but did you find it was possible to share your grief together, or did you feel the need to go and offload on someone else?
Tim: I think in the grieving part, I was very much the carer because obviously, it hits your partner much harder. It’s actually physically happening in their body. Just because of the physical trauma and the drugs that you have to take and all this stuff, from a male perspective, medically, you’re not doing anything to your body. Whereas from the female perspective, so much has gone on and so much more has been invested.
When the miscarriage happened, yes, I was totally on the tag team of supporting. Yes, really, at that point, it would have been good to speak to somebody external for that sanity of offloading and actually being a better support because you’ve actually recharged your emotional batteries, right?
Becky: Your batteries, yes, of course. How about you, John?
John: I was just selective about– I already knew the people that I’d need to support me. That’s the thing. On one hand, I’m incredibly a fan of people getting their feelings expressed, getting the support. That doesn’t mean that you go out on an APB to every–
Becky: Sorry, what’s an APB?
John: All-persons bulletin. You don’t want it to become trivial because you’re telling everyone. Then just think about who you want to get your support from, and then make sure that they’re aware that you will be coming to them.
Becky: Can I ask, was that friends or family or both?
John: Predominantly, my best man, who’s family as well. We grew up together. We’ve always had more of a brotherly relationship, to be honest. That was an easy one. He was one of the people by my side when I was ill as well. Again, the fact is that it’s the ties that bind. That was a very easy because he was there. He was one of the instant people. Then a couple of closer friends who, again, I would wax lyrical with over most things that just give you that kind of outlet because there’s an element of pressure, there always is, but you have to be able to take the valve off of it without the whole thing blowing open.
We decided, again, immediate parents would be our direct. The whole idea was to try to relieve a bit of pressure, but don’t increase pressure inadvertently because everyone knows you’re going through IVF. Then they’re all going, “Oh, we really want it to work for you.” [crosstalk] That’s counterproductive.
Ben: People asking you, obviously, “How’s it going?” It’s the worst thing, isn’t it? It’s very hard to–
Tim: Yes. I think the ideal friend to have had would have been somebody who’d gone through IVF because, at the time, we didn’t know anybody who had. We did share it with other people. It would have been really good to speak to someone who had gone through this process and understood medically what was happening and the emotions of it and some of the outcomes because friends can listen, which is great, but actually to truly empathize with what you’re doing is harder because they’ve got no experience of any of this world that, unfortunately, we’ve all been part of.
Ben: Is that something that you would have liked in a telephone call with somebody, or would you go to a forum typing into Google or something, or to a forum? Would that have worked for you or not?
Tim: I think, yes. I think I’ve worked with computers too much. If there was an informal chat down the pub where you could meet other people going through this process would have been great just to share these things. I think to your earlier point, if you know what’s coming, you can prepare yourself a bit more. I think you don’t know all the potential outcomes when you start doing it. You don’t know what happens if it fails because you haven’t really thought that far ahead.
John: I think it would be beneficial for anyone going through it to network with people that have done it because I totally agree to him. If you’ve got people along the way that can give you insight, brilliant, but if you don’t want to expose yourself along the way because those people are likely to be strangers essentially. As you go through the journey and you get more vulnerable emotionally, you might then feel like, “Oh God, I’m talking to someone I don’t really know about–“
Yes, I agree. Something to normalize it a bit more, even bring that forward as much as you can, because then you can get that insight from people that have done it, feel less abnormal. Then, as you go in, if you need to pull away slightly, selfishly, as the people then in the moment, you have had a lot of advice front-ended that’s going to help you hopefully not go down that panic mode and all the risks, pitfalls that come with it along the way.
Tim: I think if you think about when you finally get pregnant, you go through the NCT classes and you’ve got all that support network of these people you’ve never met before but are on the same journey as you and you’re sharing stuff with them you wouldn’t share with anybody else because you’re in that madness of it all. It would be almost good to have an IVF NCT in a way of these are the people doing it at the same time as you and feeling your pains and walking that path with you.
Becky: There’s nothing more depressing. I have this image in my head of often going into clinics and seeing these other very sad-looking couples sitting in the waiting room. You look at each other and you don’t know what stage they’re at, but you know that you’re in the same boat to a certain extent. That you’re all desperate to have a baby. I really remember that. I remember how depressing these waiting rooms were.
Tim: I also remember when we went back for the second rounds, having a child, and feeling awful taking an 18-month-old child into the waiting room because you knew it’s just one of those awkward situations that, I don’t know, there was no good way of handling it really in a British paradigm.
Becky: Yes, exactly. Just to wrap it up, what would your advice be to potential IVF dads?
Tim: I think I would go into it with my eyes much more open and do a lot more research upfront, and also just be much more open with my support network about what was going on in the end. As John was saying earlier, just line up some people who I wanted to be involved in the journey. Again, a lot of it is obviously with the benefit of hindsight, it’s very easy, but at the time, you don’t have your infertile moment, most people don’t.
It’s a gradual thing where you suddenly arrive at this point, and if a clinic were to give some advice and just say, find some support and do some research upfront, and make the materials available for understanding what the many various IVF journeys are that could lie in front of you, would be very helpful.
Becky: And you, John?
John: I would say once you’ve got the care plan, try and plan in the moments you might need to step in to really emotionally help the partner who’s going through the treatment.
Becky: When you say the care plan, do you mean the protocols?
John: The protocols, yes. Look at the time of dates and think there might be some pinch points along this route that it’ll get tough at, so I need to be ready. If you’re not the person with the fertility issue, again, statistics bear out that it’s kind of a 50-50, but let’s say you’re the male and you’re not the person with the issue, be ready to take pride in being the rock for your partner. You need to be the one to step up there upfront and go, “Well, I’ll be the strong one when I need to be.” You’re going to have your own licks, but you be ready to take pride in being that rock.
Ben: That probably brings us to a good point to end this conversation. This idea of support needed or support offered is a very interesting one. John and Tim, thank you so much for joining us.
Becky: Yes, thank you so much. It’s been fantastic. Thank you.
John: Oh, and have a holiday booked.
Becky: Oh, yes. Nice.
John: Book a holiday.
Becky: Nice. Somewhere hot.
John: Book a holiday. Six months after it’s all over, book a holiday. If it doesn’t work, decide which way your life– where do you want to go as a couple after that? Give it a bit of time, common sense, but have a holiday booked.
Becky: Great idea.
Ben: Perfect.
[music]
Becky: That was Becky and Ben’s Fertility Spotlight. You can find our story on the podcast website, www.fertility-spotlight.com. Our social media is facebook.com/fertilityspotlight and instagram.com/fertilityspotlight.
Ben: Feel free to comment, share, or subscribe. To help us make more content, you can also make a donation. If there’s a topic you’d like us to talk about, please just message us.
Becky: In the next episode, we’ll be talking about resilience. It’s an important subject, and we’re going to be sharing some interesting strategies.
Ben: Always speak to a healthcare professional for medical information and advice.
Becky: See you soon for resilience, and remember, don’t despair.
Ben: We’ll get there.
[music]
[00:43:10] [END OF AUDIO]
I’m An IVF Dad – Read My 10 Survival Tips
Our guest blogger this week, John Roy, talks about IVF from the male perspective. A testicular cancer diagnosis led to urgent IVF treatment – and a reassessment of his and his partner’s wellbeing.
My cancer diagnosis brought everything into sharp focus. Would I survive? How would my partner cope? And, given we chose to freeze my sperm and have IVF treatment, how would that go? It was a big shock, and a bigger challenge. But we stayed strong and kept going. Here are ten ways I supported my partner through our fertility treatment. From start to finish, it’s not easy. But there was only one option: go all in.
1. Be there – be present.
Pay attention. Ask questions. Hold hands. Nod like you understand what the hell you’re seeing on the ultrasound monitor. The routine appointments, the worry, the stress, the never-ending nature of IVF: these can drown out your caring qualities. Don’t zone out. It’s about being truly there, in mind and body. This will be remembered.
2. Master the jargon.
It doesn’t take much to learn the lingo. Knowing what’s going on turns you from a spectator to a co-pilot. Get stuck in – you will surprise yourself, not just your partner. Phrases like ‘good follicle count’, ‘trigger shot’ and ‘spotting’ tripped of my tongue. I forced myself to understand the bewildering terminology of IVF. I enjoyed doing it. Sharing the jargon, swotting up on the tech – it was comforting. To both of us.
3. Heed those hormones.
One minute you’re heroes. The next you’re on the rocks. Don’t fix it. Don’t say ‘calm down’. Just listen, and offer cuddles, snacks, and tea. (Actually, neat vodka, for those not on medication, works wonders.) The medication your partner takes is strong stuff. It’s basically artificial hormonal medication. Who wants that? Be there for your partner and take the heat when it all gets too much. Which it will. Frequently.
4. Be her PA.
The admin and planning side of IVF is insane. I’d argue that male partners should assume responsibility for the prep. Appointments, meds, injections: set alarms, label everything, and keep the paperwork. It’s dull but important. Being organised really does take pressure of your partner, so step up and be the administrator. Being one is a valid form of care.
5. Injections – offer to do them.
I helped my partner with her injections by preparing and applying them. Offer that service to your own partner. She may not agree but she’ll appreciate the gesture.
Be calm and gentle. Don’t say: ‘This might sting’. Don’t pinch hard, grip the skin to create a hump, and don’t cringe-out. It’s not you having your body chemically altered. If she insists on injecting herself you can still be in the room. Let your presence be her support.
6. Have a holiday.
My secret weapon: book a mini break. Do it before your treatment starts. If a treatment cycle fails, you’ll have time and space to recharge. If it’s a positive result, use that time to celebrate. Planning rest and recuperation is, as I found out, a big win.
7. Don’t bottle it.
You’ll feel useless sometimes — like a spectator in your own life. Talk to someone: a mate, a counsellor, even yourself. It takes integrity and strength to admit you’re feeling vulnerable. I was always surprised and relieved when friends responded to requests for support. You’ll quicky gravitate to those who really give it.
8. Be brave – and celebrate your courage.
Bravery is saying to your partner: whatever the outcome, we’ll get through this. Being that rock is what marriage is all about. You know that. Lead the way and drive yourself to remain proactive and present. If you mess up, onto the next task. You’ll quickly be forgiven. IVF is an alternative state of reality. It’s also time-specific: there’s a beginning and an end. Be within it.
9. Ask the doctor – twice.
Try to keep track of information and advice at medical appointments. Remember to ask for a summary, ideally in writing. It’s amazing how often you forget what you’re told. By insisting on clarity, you can provide impressive recaps when your partner needs that crucial instruction. Be her information comforter.
10. Small wins, big rewards.
IVF is a parade of small victories. Surviving the injections, getting good eggs and embryos, enduring the two-week wait. Celebrate the positives of each day. Then reset to neutral, ready for tomorrow. It’s not over till it’s over.
Best of luck to my fellow IVF dads (or would-be dads). Be strong. Own it.
To hear John’s full story, have a listen to our podcast (see below for his episode). He’s joined by Tim, another IVF dad. Hope you enjoy it!
Becky Saer: Hello, and welcome back to Becky and Ben’s Fertility Spotlight. I’m Becky.
Ben Saer: I’m Ben.
Becky: We’re former fertility patients, and we arrange IVF treatments for others who need a helping hand.
Ben: We’re taking an honest and compassionate look at fertility issues that affect us all.
Becky: Today, we’re speaking to two IVF dads. The male perspective is often overlooked. We’ll be hearing their take on the whole process.
Ben: Just a reminder, our podcast is general information only. For a personalized diagnosis, always speak to a healthcare professional.
Becky: Let’s get started.
[music]
Becky: I’d like to talk today about the male perspective on fertility. We’ve called this episode “IVF Dads”, which I have to say I’m very excited about. I know that sounds a bit bizarre, but being married to an IVF dad, obviously, Ben–
Ben: That’s me.
Becky: That’s him. I have been through it with Ben. I think it’s very interesting to talk about the male perspective. Obviously, in the fertility world, it’s very much focused on the woman. Obviously, as a woman, having been through it myself, you go through the physical rigor of fertility treatment. You go through the emotional rigor, but there, in the background, possibly, or side by side, in a more equal world, you have your partner, your male partner.
Today, we’re specifically talking about heterosexual couples. We’re going to be doing episodes on female couples and male couples. Today, we’re focusing on heterosexual couples. Very kindly, we have two IVF dads with us in the studio today, John and Tim. We’re hugely grateful to them for coming along to talk to us about their experiences as IVF dads. Ben, would you have any comments, really, on being an IVF dad yourself?
Ben: The thing that I remember from our journey was, yes, a lot of the emphasis was on you, and rightly so, because you carry the baby. It’s a very complicated process, pregnancy and monitoring pregnancy, assessing your eggs, of course, and just getting you ready. There’s so much more that you do, of course, than me, or did rather than me. I do look back at it, and I do remember that there were two main issues. There was the medical side of things, and there was the emotional side of things. In this podcast, we’re focusing on the emotional journey of patients.
On the medical side, for me, there weren’t too many issues. In some senses, the pressure was slightly off me. On the emotional side, I do remember it was tough. It was tough seeing you go through everything that you went through, the four IUIs, the IVF cycles, the donor egg cycle that resulted in the loss of Elsie. All of this was tough. I remember internalizing it a lot. Of course, we talked about it, but I didn’t use resources. I didn’t seek much help myself. I know we had counseling together when things went wrong. Even now, where there are more resources for men, then there were not.
Becky: This was 11 years ago. It was quite a long time ago. There were no apps. There was no focus in the media, and there still isn’t, I don’t think, on the male perspective on fertility. I think that’s why it’s such an interesting area. I remember you were the strong, silent type. Such a cliche. One thing I do remember you did, which was really helpful, was that you completely organized the IVF treatment.
Ben: I did do that.
Becky: You did all the research.
Ben: I enjoyed doing that. No, I genuinely enjoyed it because I did–
Becky: It was problem-solving.
Ben: Also, I wanted to take the pressure off you during it. Some of the patients that we’ve helped over the years, we’re often approached by the male partner, too. That’s for personal, sometimes for cultural reasons more than anything, that they will organize the process and look after their wife. I was feeling a bit in that mode. Certainly, time and time again, when things weren’t working, I internalized it. We didn’t speak much about it when the things didn’t work. I remember looking at myself in the mirror after we lost Elsie and just seeing this sad man looking back at me.
Becky: Oh dear.
Ben: We had counseling. I remember the counselor that we saw was actually rather worried about me more than you. How dare she?
Becky: That’s because I’m such a strong female.
Ben: How dare she? I actually was referred to another counselor by the counselor. I’m glad I was, because it did help. She got me to do things like more regular exercise and just taking care of myself a bit better. These days, we are seeing glimmers of light in terms of extra resources and support for men going through the fertility process.
Becky: Also, I think it’s something that I’m interested to see if John and Tim might talk about. That is, do you think that in 2025, young men are encouraged in education and generally culturally to be a bit more open about their feelings? That does lead us on to introducing John. Thank you so much for being with us.
John: Thanks for having me.
Becky: To start with, John, can you just give us a short summary of your fertility journey?
John: Maybe a common but not so traditional route in the sense that I was diagnosed with testicular cancer. Basically, the chemotherapy that I was going to have after my surgical procedure was guaranteed to sterilize me. My consultant, who was absolutely spectacular, essentially pre-planned me to go and do storage at the UCL, the University College London, ahead of the chemotherapy.
The issue was, because I was very ill, my cancer had progressed quite aggressively. I was a Stage III position, so really quite ill. The fertility was compromised. The cancer was compromising my fertility, but also there was a guarantee that I would have no fertility after my treatment. The consultant did the referral, and then I had a very short window to come up. I came up to London. I had two weeks before I had to start my chemo. Without a shadow of a doubt, that was deadline day. I had to get going.
Becky: Did that feel like a lot of pressure?
John: Yes, it was weird because it was pressure, but it wasn’t so much pressure of the going to do the storage. It was pressure each time they would ring to say the result. The nurse would ring and say, “Oh, this sample today was sadly not usable.”
Becky: Oh, gosh. That must have been really hard.
John: Yes, it was quite tough, that bit. As a bloke, you generally don’t worry too much about yourself, which is partly the issue that you back end all of your emotions instead of getting them out at the start.
Ben: Well, I mean, but you had a lot on your plate there.
John: Yes, exactly. I was about to say.
Ben: To have that serious medical situation to attend to.
John: That was the thing. You’re going to do the storage, but it felt very on rails, just a complete pandemonium, almost, emotionally, because personally, I wasn’t another two and a half, three years down the line when the IVF stuff started. I was just in that moment where I’m like, “Just get me well, please.” Your priority then is your own health. At the back of your mind, you’re thinking, “Great, we’ve got an insurance policy, hopefully going on.”
The problem, of course, with that was it doesn’t even occur to you that the illness itself might be meaning that the storage is going to take you into the realm of what you would have been down anyway if you hadn’t had the cancer, because you’re getting your own fertility in that scenario is being compromised by the illness. You’re, by proxy, becoming a purely fertility-based route into the system.
Ben: The perception, as well, of male partners and fertility is that things generally don’t go wrong that much with the male partner, which is, of course, not the opposite, but certainly the extreme opposite for you. We know the facts are that in any fertility cycle, regardless of the cancer, it’s 30% likely to be a female issue, 30% the male, including your serious condition, and 40% a mix of the two. I wanted to bring Tim in on this as well because, Tim, as I understand it, you did not have as serious a medical challenge as John. Could you tell us a bit more about your route?
Tim: Yes. Ours was probably a more standard routine. We were a newlywed couple, started trying to have children, and over time, it dawns on you that not much is happening. Then, yes, obviously, went to the doctor, and you then go through the waiting period whilst they assess that you are legitimately a candidate for IVF. Then we did a couple of cycles of IUI, which were pointless. In my opinion, it felt like it kind of–
Becky: In an earlier episode, we talk about actually how pointless IUI is.
Tim: Yes. It felt like a holding pattern, really. We weren’t really doing anything. The only thing I can say is, psychologically, it does prepare you a little bit for the IVF because you’re doing some of the same processes and getting used to going into that medical environment. I think as a dad, well, as a wannabe dad at the time, all your friends are just getting married, having kids effortlessly, carrying on their partying lifestyle for the nine months leading up to the birth, whereas you’re having to harbor this secret. I think, in hindsight, we should have been more open about it.
John: Definitely.
Tim: It doesn’t come at you in the way– In hindsight, it’s wonderful, but at the time, you creep into it, don’t you?
Ben: You creep into it.
John: It’s not an every cloud has a silver lining statement necessarily, but because with certainty, you know you’re going down that path. We didn’t have that, shall we call pressure, or stigmatism, or whatever else. It’s funny, I was talking about it with a mate the other day, and it was like that whole thing as well of sometimes you hear stories of guys feeling emasculated and less of a man, and all that sort of thing. That didn’t happen to me even after I was literally surgically altered, shall we say. I didn’t get that then, and I didn’t have the option to think it either about my infertility because I knew for certain that it was taken away from me.
That is almost a weird benefit because you don’t go down that paranoid, silly thinking. It’s all nonsense, obviously. It’s all perspective, but I didn’t get the chance to go down the road of, shall we tell our family or not, and how do we feel about that, because it was all part and parcel of the situation we found ourselves in. That clearly can’t happen to each guy, but what I’m saying is, to reflect on your point, Tim, there, the sooner you can get your head out of that mindset, the better as a bloke, I think. Otherwise, you’re too wrapped up in that neurosis when really I went into carer mode for my wife quite early because I wasn’t stuck in the worry phase.
Then, when she was feeling a bit more like, “Oh, well,” getting wrapped up in the worry, I could then become the person to say, “Look, let’s just be open and neutral and objective as early as we can,” because that can only help the chances of–
Becky: Did you become more open with family and friends and colleagues and so on, or were you just–
John: Yes. This is the thing. The minute you do say something, people support you, don’t they? Hopefully.
Becky: Absolutely. You do know who your friends are, don’t you?
Tim: Yes. I think everybody we ever spoke to was very supportive about it. I think it is just at the time, the whole baby-making process is very personal. Also, for most people, it’s a private, magical thing.
Ben: You’re outsourcing that private, that privacy to a bunch of people in white coats who are doing their best for you. It’s the least romantic.
Becky: At least sexy, I have to say. It’s extremely unsexy, extremely unromantic.
John: In for a penny, in for a pound. It’s like, what’s the point in turning it into a big secret? Don’t get me wrong, if someone wants to call it privacy, go for it.
Becky: Of course, yes, you expect that.
John: If you’re feeling compelled to be private for embarrassment or worry, not a good idea, push back against it. Actively push against it.
Becky: This would be your advice to potential IVF dads out there?
Tim: Yes. I think it’s realizing when you need the help. I think as a bloke, you tend to want to be able to solve everything without getting any outside help. I think asking for that help early and just, yes, at the time, it was an additional pressure with work and friends and social situations where you’re having to pretend to drink because you’re trying to hide this thing away. Everyone else is drinking, and you’re silently having to sneak up to order a tonic water or whatever. I know a lot of women go through that when they’re trying to conceive or when they’re early pregnancy, but actually, blokes don’t normally have that issue to deal with. I think openness would have been a way better route.
Ben: When you both had tests for your fertility, were they extensive enough, did you find? One of the criticisms we often hear is that the female partner is tested for everything under the sun. The male partner is just, “Oh, just going to have a semen analysis.” We know that if it’s 30% a male issue with infertility, we know that it’s not always about the semen analysis. We know there’s something called DNA fragmentation test. We know there’s something called karyotyping, which is when they look at your chromosomes in the male partner and the female partner, just to check they’re okay before you even start.
John: We had those tests.
Becky: Did you? Wow. Yes.
John: We were NHS funded because obviously, we had the referral from the oncologist to trigger the journey. We didn’t have to go–
Becky: Because of your cancer.
John: Right. Our GP literally logs in, checks my notes, and then goes, “Yes, I’m afraid it’s straight to the local consultant.” Then, when we got to see the local consultant, she also was spectacular in the sense that she did do all the genetic screenings and everything else.
Becky: This was all on the NHS?
John: Yes.
Becky: Amazing.
John: We had a full profile done of both of us because obviously, I’ve been referred, but then my wife also needs to be assessed in case there’s a complementary set of issues that the clinic would then need to be aware of as part of our journey as a couple.
Ben: Well, I think clearly they were looking at you very closely. Tim, I’m sure you had the semen analysis and stuff like that, but did you find that you got enough care from the doctors?
Tim: No.
Becky: Were you ignored, do you think?
Tim: Yes. It would largely be the conversation would be between the doctor and Kate, and I would be a peripheral figure, feeling like a supportive [unintelligible 00:15:24]
Becky: A spare part.
Tim: A spare part, yes. I think we had the semen analysis at the beginning, but that was it. Again, we were NHS, so the focus was much more on let’s just make this work rather than trying to find out potentially why it wasn’t working, which, at the end of the day, it works. I can’t really fault it too much, but there’s still a lot of unanswered questions. It’s not that it’s a blame game, but it still bugs me today. Why didn’t it work? Nothing in any of the tests really seemed to show anything wrong with Kate. Obviously, the one test we had for me, nothing seemed to be wrong with that.
Becky: It was unexplained infertility?
Tim: Unexplained, which in itself is irritating because you want to get–
Ben: The phrase is irritating. You want to say, “Well, you’re the doctor, you explain it.”
Becky: Yes, exactly. Surely someone can explain it. Surely a scientist can explain it. That’s where you feel, oh, they should have delved in further.
Tim: Even if they just gave us more explanation and said, “These are potentially the reasons why it might not be working, but it’s too expensive to do this, or you can pay extra to have this test done.” Just have a little bit more light shone into that box, because it felt very unknown.
Ben: I remember sitting with Becky and similar experience. The doctor didn’t even look at me. I had all the questions. I started off asking all these questions, and it was literally, “Yes, I think I’ll speak to your wife. Thanks very much.” Turned to Becky and talked about it. Yes, there’s a lot of new fertility apps out there, for example. There’s an explosion of fertility apps, but most of them are still focused on the woman. In our experience, it’s best to have a few that focus towards the male partner. It’s the same with the emotional side of things. Resources are becoming available for male partners.
Not all of us want to go to these resources, but the point is that they are coming on stream a bit more. That’s got to be basically good. The whole wellness side of thing has exploded. This idea, it almost seems old-fashioned even now, Tim, your story about just sitting in there and having this neutral conversation with a rather robotic doctor. Let us hope that the wellness side of things, where there almost needs to be maybe a fertility coach in these clinics that speaks to both of you and says, “Right, you guys, look after yourself. Stop drinking, stop smoking. Take moderate exercise,” all that kind of stuff. A bit more focus on the well-being of the patient.
Becky: It’s not just that. It’s about giving emotional support. I think we found in our experience with the clinics that we– there are a lot of great clinics in the UK, let me say here and now that there are some brilliant ones. I did find that through my experience, a great lack of emotional support for myself. Can you imagine how little emotional support for Ben? That’s why we set up our company to support emotionally and practically other IVF patients. Just going on to John, did you ever experience IVF failure? It’s a sensitive subject. I just wanted to ask how you, as a man, coped with that.
John: The failure, in the sense of it didn’t go as planned, was the first cycle of harvesting. With the medications, it’s about balancing them to get the optimal amount of egg releases. Essentially, the first course of therapies, it wasn’t quite right.
Becky: It wasn’t working.
John: The protocol resulted in not an optimal amount of eggs produced. We had some, but not enough to move to the next stage of fertilizing the eggs. Essentially, it was all the side effects for my wife, all the emotional buildup of, it’s nearly collection day.
Becky: There just weren’t enough [unintelligible 00:19:16]
John: Then we didn’t quite get there.
Becky: Oh, I’m sorry.
John: The disappointment was going through the whole rigmarole and the discomfort. We still had the hope. We were told at the time–
Becky: Because we were so nearly there.
John: We were so nearly there.
Becky: So nearly there, so frustrating because you were so close.
Tim: We invested so much time.
John: Now we have to reset and go again. To be brutally honest, I was actually quite, “Oh well.” I was fairly flippant about it. Clearly not when my wife is feeling terrible.
Becky: No, of course.
John: In my mind, I thought, “Well, you just need to just keep your chin up and be ready to support her through the next few weeks.”
Becky: Through the next one. Were you already thinking ahead?
John: Don’t feel sorry. Don’t be moping about yourself, because at this point, if it’s “IVF Dads”, my only disappointment is, oh, well, she cannot move to her next stage. Actually, got no right to really feel particularly sad about it, and I’m going to just support her. There was a failure, but again, from the Dad’s point of view, I didn’t feel like there had been “a failure.” It was a setback.
Ben: The way you describe that, John, is interesting, because if you break a leg, so you’re in a relationship and your partner breaks their leg, you’ve got a pretty good chance that the leg is going to be fixed. You do look after your partner, obviously, and cook the meals, but it’s out of the blue to suddenly be in this position where you have to give major care to your partner, as you did when that didn’t work. It’s a big ask, I think, for a lot of people, because a lot of people don’t have the resources or the training, but just the life experience. To suddenly become really very caring.
Tim: I think it’s also you’re heavily invested in the success of this thing. In our case, the first cycle went perfectly well and everything was good, but from later failed cycles, it is that you build up and you feel like everything’s gone badly wrong, and surely now it’s going to work. You’re hoping for this thing. You’ve had so much bad luck, and you think, “Well, this is going to be fine.” You don’t really expect it to fail. When it does, it’s a really big blow, I think.
John: Obviously, clearly, Tim, I’ve not met you. I don’t have any view of your relationship with your wife, but what I would say is probably a general truism is that you’re a tag team. That’s when you really start to fire on all cylinders. Forget IVF and fertility, just as a couple, if you’re a tag team. What I mean by that is one of you is against the ropes, whilst the other person is almost functioning as a support and a cheerleader, but you have to be ready to just jump in and take the blow.
When my wife hit that really horrible moment of completely physically exhausted, absolutely losing the will to live physically and emotionally because of the hormone changes that go with all that, what you do is you tag in, and you start to take some of the heft of her emotions. The point I’m trying to make here, in a very strange lens of IVF, is that would apply to any walk of an emotional challenge in a relationship. We’ve had other issues in the redundancies and job losses and things.
Now, if I’m not the person who’s currently going through the job loss, I’m ready to jump in and take on support, and it will flip at some point. Another ironic twist of having been gravely ill, I was more than ready to do that because she was the one who was there when I was having cycles of chemo and puking up what could only be described as purple slime toys. It was ridiculous. Ready to go in and help.
Becky: It’s very interesting because, as a man, you went through so much before the fertility treatment. As you say, it sounds like your wife was totally there for you, and how moving that then you went into fertility treatment, and you were there for her, as you say. That’s really interesting, and I love that because, in a way, it’s reflecting marriage, as you say, on a broader scale, isn’t it? Obviously, in life, there are the ups and downs, and when something goes wrong in your partner’s life, then you’re there for them, and vice versa.
John: I think there’s two streams to managing the journey as a guy, and that’s if you need counseling, take it. By the way, counseling is just talking, really. It’s just targeted talking. If you’ve got a friend you can talk to openly, do that. Don’t worry.
Becky: I often say friends are the best therapy.
John: Counseling is, in its most extreme form, for people that have no one else to talk to or can’t talk to anyone else. If you’ve got those two opportunities, do that because that will work. Then you do also have, because you know you’re going into a journey of therapies, and hopefully with a good clinic who can block it out for you, it gives you an opportunity as a guy to think, “Right, there are the beats in the journey where I’m going to need to be on it,” because there’s a point there where it could go wrong. I can’t be the one emotionally investing in myself too much until then. Get out what you need to get out along the way, but be ready at that point to, “I’m going to take some of the strain here.”
Again, it’s not about making it about the woman because I know we’ve said there’s that whole nonsense of stats bear it out, common sense bears it out, really. That doesn’t mean to say, and you might find this when you come onto the same sex couples, I hope you do, because couples are couples. It doesn’t really matter what your sexual orientation is. The point being is the tag team means that someone at some point will need the help. Don’t be embarrassed to take it, and don’t be too shy to give it. In the time up to that point when you’re thinking you’re going to tag into the journey, the beauty of this is, if that’s the right word, you can plan it.
Like a normal pregnancy will have ups and downs, the disadvantage of being in a normal route is you can’t plan those things as well. Don’t get me wrong. Once we were pregnant, we were into the wacky world of anything can happen, and you can’t really predict it. That first real hard disappointment meant that I knew, actually, next time we go into that journey, I can plan for it now as well.
Becky: Tim, did you have the same planning mentality? It’s very interesting for me to hear this because it’s, I think, a very strong way of, would you agree?
Tim: A mature way, I would say, of dealing with it.
Becky: A very mature way of approaching a process that is very, very erratic. It’s a very interesting way of doing it. Did you have that perspective, Tim, or did you more go with the flow?
Tim: I think more with flow. Like I said, when we first started with the IVF thing, we’d gone through this gradual realization of infertility. From the moment we started IVF, the first round, everything went textbook and perfectly.
Becky: The first IVF cycle was successful.
Tim: Yes. Egg harvest worked really well, got a decent number of embryos. One was implanted and went on to a successful pregnancy, at which point it’s brilliant. We’re rubbish at normal fertility, but we’re brilliant at IVF. Then obviously, when it came to the second time around, that’s when things started to get wrong and that’s when we experienced failure. I think we were totally unprepared for that. Having had success the first time, you get into a complacent place of, yes, go back.
Becky: That’s often not the case. It’s often that people fail and fail and fail, and then they’re successful. It’s quite interesting that it was that way around for you.
Tim: Yes. I think it’s also, I think, with the financial pressure, because the first round was NHS, and then after that, you’re starting to self-fund. You’re aware there is that pressure, there’s this finite amount of money that you are going to start burning through that does start to become way out of hand.
Ben: The pressure builds a bit, doesn’t it?
Tim: You’re also thinking, how much are we prepared to sacrifice to get this second child? Obviously, you could carry on forever and sell your house and get yourself in a massive amount of debt, but that’s compromising on the child you’ve already got. There is a point where you have to call it off. Luckily, we never got to that point because after, I think another– we had two failed rounds and then a miscarriage, and then we had a successful round.
Even with that number of things, each round, the pressure builds, and the questions build, and the strain on your partner, you can really see. Also, I think subconsciously, you’re just thinking they are putting more and more medicines into their body every time, more and more hormones are disrupting the natural flow of their body more. You have that concern about the impact that might have on them in the longer run.
Becky: Of course, yes.
Ben: I think this idea of– it’s called a market in hope, isn’t it, IVF? We hear this phrase about a market of hope. You’re investing so much in each and every cycle that you do, and when it doesn’t work, it’s an enormous investment that you feel is lost. There’s also this sense when you have an embryo that doesn’t work, the counselors will tell you this, it is a grieving process for each and every embryo.
Becky: Also, can I just say, a miscarriage is a huge, huge thing.
Tim: I think the way that was [unintelligible 00:28:40] was probably the lowest point of our journey.
Becky: Yes, of course. I’m really sorry to hear that.
Tim: You go into the clinic like everyone else, and you have your ultrasound, and then you’re delivered this devastating news, and then you get back into the waiting room where there’s all these pregnant people and hopeful people. I feel like it would be good for a clinic to have another way out. There was no space to go and sit and come to terms with it. There was no back exit to escape walking past all these–
Becky: All these pregnant mothers.
Tim: The last people you want to see when you’ve just had that thing dropped on your lap. Obviously, that happens a lot. We’re not the only people this has happened to, and it feels like that was something that there should be contingencies in place for that.
Becky: It does happen a lot. That’s even more reason for there to be extra care, because it is very common for women to have miscarriages, whether you’ve had IVF or not. It’s a huge loss. It’s a huge, huge loss. I think it takes much longer to get over than people anticipate.
Ben: Being given the news, like Tim just said, we’ve been given bad news. Many patients listening to this podcast will be given bad news, sadly, such as the odds of IVF treatment not working all the time. I think I’m right in saying that in this country, clinics have to provide counseling services at each of their units. It’s not beyond the bounds of possibility, is it, that these clinics could think in advance about people who’ve been given bad news and being ushered, like you say, Tim, into a room straight with the counselor, the counseling team, a member of that counseling team, to sit you down with a cup of tea. Not just a doctor, not just a cold nurse giving you the bad news. It’s got to be possible.
Tim: It’s a grieving process, isn’t it?
Becky: Yes, completely.
Tim: I’ll tell you. I’m Irish Catholic stock. One of the cultural things that we will do, it’s this morbid fascination with death that you get in Irish Catholic family, “Who’s dead? Did you hear he died?” It’s always, “Who’s dead?” Then it happens to your own family, you see. Then you have this bizarre, probably from an external perspective, point of view, it would look weird, but you just sit around and talk about the person constantly, and as quickly as possible after they’ve passed.
Becky: It’s a way of keeping them alive, though, isn’t it?
Tim: Yes. Funnily enough, I was saying to my mum the other day, because my uncle passed this year, and it was a massive blow to the whole family. I was with my auntie and my mum yesterday, and we were just saying this, where the sooner you can deal with something that’s horrible, which, of course, parallels what we’re talking about here, in the long run, the better it is. As hard as it is to start chatting about it, do it.
Now, don’t get me wrong. The plus side of doing that with someone that’s lived a life is you have lots of memories to pepper the negative feelings that you are experiencing, and you can raise a smile and all that. It doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t do it in a scenario where there’s less to be positive about in the overall scheme, because it’s about expressing it. Culturally, like British people, especially of our generation, emotions and sharing, the whole process of handling grief as a British person of our generation is just to ignore it.
Becky: Tim, can I just ask your age, just so that people have an idea of–
Tim: 46. I have to think about it.
Becky: We’re talking about 40s, 50s here. Yes, exactly.
Tim: I think it’s that generational thing. I hope it is better for the young generation, certainly for our kids as they grow up, that the world is more open place and a more place. I think our instinct is to not talk about things. We need pricing apart to talk about things rather than, actually, we should, like you say, confront things quicker and deal with them quicker rather than burying them deep.
Becky: Do you have any one male friend or female friend or family member that is your go-to and that was during your fertility treatment that you felt you could just go and chat to?
Tim: I spoke to a couple of people. Probably, again, didn’t share as much as I said. I think, again, from the male perspective, we’re groomed to be self-dependent and be the rock that supports everyone else, and not reach out for help when we need it. With the benefit of hindsight and obviously now being a bit older, 100% should have spoken to more people and spoken to people earlier.
Becky: The people that you did speak to, were they close friends or were they family?
Tim: Yes, they were friends.
Becky: Two male friends, were they?
Tim: Two male friends, yes. Also, actually, female friends and also to my family. I didn’t really engage with them on the journey. It was like when we were quite a long way into it. I think it would have been better to offload earlier and share that journey and that load with them.
Becky: In terms of talking to your partner, did you find that it was quite, I think easy is the wrong word, but did you find it was possible to share your grief together, or did you feel the need to go and offload on someone else?
Tim: I think in the grieving part, I was very much the carer because obviously, it hits your partner much harder. It’s actually physically happening in their body. Just because of the physical trauma and the drugs that you have to take and all this stuff, from a male perspective, medically, you’re not doing anything to your body. Whereas from the female perspective, so much has gone on and so much more has been invested.
When the miscarriage happened, yes, I was totally on the tag team of supporting. Yes, really, at that point, it would have been good to speak to somebody external for that sanity of offloading and actually being a better support because you’ve actually recharged your emotional batteries, right?
Becky: Your batteries, yes, of course. How about you, John?
John: I was just selective about– I already knew the people that I’d need to support me. That’s the thing. On one hand, I’m incredibly a fan of people getting their feelings expressed, getting the support. That doesn’t mean that you go out on an APB to every–
Becky: Sorry, what’s an APB?
John: All-persons bulletin. You don’t want it to become trivial because you’re telling everyone. Then just think about who you want to get your support from, and then make sure that they’re aware that you will be coming to them.
Becky: Can I ask, was that friends or family or both?
John: Predominantly, my best man, who’s family as well. We grew up together. We’ve always had more of a brotherly relationship, to be honest. That was an easy one. He was one of the people by my side when I was ill as well. Again, the fact is that it’s the ties that bind. That was a very easy because he was there. He was one of the instant people. Then a couple of closer friends who, again, I would wax lyrical with over most things that just give you that kind of outlet because there’s an element of pressure, there always is, but you have to be able to take the valve off of it without the whole thing blowing open.
We decided, again, immediate parents would be our direct. The whole idea was to try to relieve a bit of pressure, but don’t increase pressure inadvertently because everyone knows you’re going through IVF. Then they’re all going, “Oh, we really want it to work for you.” [crosstalk] That’s counterproductive.
Ben: People asking you, obviously, “How’s it going?” It’s the worst thing, isn’t it? It’s very hard to–
Tim: Yes. I think the ideal friend to have had would have been somebody who’d gone through IVF because, at the time, we didn’t know anybody who had. We did share it with other people. It would have been really good to speak to someone who had gone through this process and understood medically what was happening and the emotions of it and some of the outcomes because friends can listen, which is great, but actually to truly empathize with what you’re doing is harder because they’ve got no experience of any of this world that, unfortunately, we’ve all been part of.
Ben: Is that something that you would have liked in a telephone call with somebody, or would you go to a forum typing into Google or something, or to a forum? Would that have worked for you or not?
Tim: I think, yes. I think I’ve worked with computers too much. If there was an informal chat down the pub where you could meet other people going through this process would have been great just to share these things. I think to your earlier point, if you know what’s coming, you can prepare yourself a bit more. I think you don’t know all the potential outcomes when you start doing it. You don’t know what happens if it fails because you haven’t really thought that far ahead.
John: I think it would be beneficial for anyone going through it to network with people that have done it because I totally agree to him. If you’ve got people along the way that can give you insight, brilliant, but if you don’t want to expose yourself along the way because those people are likely to be strangers essentially. As you go through the journey and you get more vulnerable emotionally, you might then feel like, “Oh God, I’m talking to someone I don’t really know about–“
Yes, I agree. Something to normalize it a bit more, even bring that forward as much as you can, because then you can get that insight from people that have done it, feel less abnormal. Then, as you go in, if you need to pull away slightly, selfishly, as the people then in the moment, you have had a lot of advice front-ended that’s going to help you hopefully not go down that panic mode and all the risks, pitfalls that come with it along the way.
Tim: I think if you think about when you finally get pregnant, you go through the NCT classes and you’ve got all that support network of these people you’ve never met before but are on the same journey as you and you’re sharing stuff with them you wouldn’t share with anybody else because you’re in that madness of it all. It would be almost good to have an IVF NCT in a way of these are the people doing it at the same time as you and feeling your pains and walking that path with you.
Becky: There’s nothing more depressing. I have this image in my head of often going into clinics and seeing these other very sad-looking couples sitting in the waiting room. You look at each other and you don’t know what stage they’re at, but you know that you’re in the same boat to a certain extent. That you’re all desperate to have a baby. I really remember that. I remember how depressing these waiting rooms were.
Tim: I also remember when we went back for the second rounds, having a child, and feeling awful taking an 18-month-old child into the waiting room because you knew it’s just one of those awkward situations that, I don’t know, there was no good way of handling it really in a British paradigm.
Becky: Yes, exactly. Just to wrap it up, what would your advice be to potential IVF dads?
Tim: I think I would go into it with my eyes much more open and do a lot more research upfront, and also just be much more open with my support network about what was going on in the end. As John was saying earlier, just line up some people who I wanted to be involved in the journey. Again, a lot of it is obviously with the benefit of hindsight, it’s very easy, but at the time, you don’t have your infertile moment, most people don’t.
It’s a gradual thing where you suddenly arrive at this point, and if a clinic were to give some advice and just say, find some support and do some research upfront, and make the materials available for understanding what the many various IVF journeys are that could lie in front of you, would be very helpful.
Becky: And you, John?
John: I would say once you’ve got the care plan, try and plan in the moments you might need to step in to really emotionally help the partner who’s going through the treatment.
Becky: When you say the care plan, do you mean the protocols?
John: The protocols, yes. Look at the time of dates and think there might be some pinch points along this route that it’ll get tough at, so I need to be ready. If you’re not the person with the fertility issue, again, statistics bear out that it’s kind of a 50-50, but let’s say you’re the male and you’re not the person with the issue, be ready to take pride in being the rock for your partner. You need to be the one to step up there upfront and go, “Well, I’ll be the strong one when I need to be.” You’re going to have your own licks, but you be ready to take pride in being that rock.
Ben: That probably brings us to a good point to end this conversation. This idea of support needed or support offered is a very interesting one. John and Tim, thank you so much for joining us.
Becky: Yes, thank you so much. It’s been fantastic. Thank you.
John: Oh, and have a holiday booked.
Becky: Oh, yes. Nice.
John: Book a holiday.
Becky: Nice. Somewhere hot.
John: Book a holiday. Six months after it’s all over, book a holiday. If it doesn’t work, decide which way your life– where do you want to go as a couple after that? Give it a bit of time, common sense, but have a holiday booked.
Becky: Great idea.
Ben: Perfect.
[music]
Becky: That was Becky and Ben’s Fertility Spotlight. You can find our story on the podcast website, www.fertility-spotlight.com. Our social media is facebook.com/fertilityspotlight and instagram.com/fertilityspotlight.
Ben: Feel free to comment, share, or subscribe. To help us make more content, you can also make a donation. If there’s a topic you’d like us to talk about, please just message us.
Becky: In the next episode, we’ll be talking about resilience. It’s an important subject, and we’re going to be sharing some interesting strategies.
Ben: Always speak to a healthcare professional for medical information and advice.
Becky: See you soon for resilience, and remember, don’t despair.
Ben: We’ll get there.
[music]
[00:43:10] [END OF AUDIO]
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